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DEV question / statement about the fate of pvp in SWToR

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
DEV question / statement about the fate of pvp in SWToR

AK_Snowbat's Avatar


AK_Snowbat
01.22.2014 , 06:29 AM | #1
I have questions i'd like to get an answer from the devs for and they all circle the same issue. The massive gap in health and damage between players at 55 in pvp and out.

As i recall, as someone who followed the devlopment of this game since rumors were abound of file boxes being transfered from SOE to Bioware many many years ago, that pvp was supposted to scale. In-fact, one of the promises you made during devlopment was that pvp was going to be more about skill than gear. That was the reason you made players scale while in pvp which was better at launch then now. Yet here i see a situation where a jedi, who was engaged in battle maybe 3/4 of the fight does 400k damage while ranged classes who were in the fight the whole time did, at max 220k.

Now, this isn't me QQ'ing because of one fight. This has been a worsening issue since pvp gear was first introduced. This was the very issue we warned agianst in devlopment that we didn't want where you now have an ever increasing level of gear and you have nowhere to go but up. Will the fate of this game be the same as wow where you are forced to raise the level cap to escape the gear divide? That will lead you to the point where the content will water down and the already drab task of leveling (which you've made somewhat fun however there is a noticable end at lvl 50 with extras just thrown in there) will just be longer and the desire will drift from playing.

This gap that you've created is quickly alienating that group of people that you first marketed to and largely still have playing, the casual player. Where the hardcore may be the vocal minority (and likely the only ones who will shoot me down with replys) the reality is that you may be slowing driving the final nail into the coffin that is this game.

With the combination of servers last year and the lack of end game content you have large pack of roaming, over geared, and over powered players who apparently can't cut it in pvp and must get their jollies off by gang banging questers who stood little chance on their own accord but now less and less as time goes on.
(this isn't a compliant about pvp servers so don't start yelling "go to a care bear server blah blah"...)

My point, sumed up is this, the promises made during devlopment was what brought me to buy the CE of this game and sub ever since. Those promises were quite simple and sumed up they were that you weren't going to be just another MMO and you weren't going to cater to the "vocal hardcore" players. I recall at one point, one dev even said "if they want ***crap hard core players want*** they should stick with wow, because it won't be here" and that was pretty great. This is not something that i'm asking for to simply suit me, i know several people that i served with who got this game as well and have since quit because this has become "just another MMO" with a Star Wars Skin. Some have gone back to WoW while others have found new games. The excitment for SWTOR was great and all you had to do with stick with the promises.

SOE said it best after they screwed up SWG " the community you launch with is the community you've got, don't change you're game in hopes of getting a new one". I believe that's exactly what's happened here, why you lost so many players after the first 6 to 12 months and why you'll keep losing players in the future.

Stand out, don't blend in. Get rid of this expertise crap you've put on pvp gear that way raiding gear and pvp gear will have nothing different other than appearence. We won't have to carry two suits around and...as promised in devlopment, a pvp'er will be able to raid and a raider will be able to pvp without feeling like they have to start over.. another promise not kept yet clearly made to casual players.

I know this will be viewed by some as "a massive change" and others will cry that they'll have no reason to live anymore without the constant gear grind required for pvp. Those people didn't grow up playing a 2d side scroller learning that games are called such because they are meant to be about fun, not work.
Those people are game hoppers, the second you make a balance change, which you will becuase you're an MMO, and they don't like it, they'll be gone. The second another MMO comes out, they'll be gone. You'll be left with us, the casual players who play because they enjoy the game, didn't space bar through all the cut scenes, enjoy the story and the time they put into their toons. Quite simply, if you lose us, you lose the game...or whatever will be left of it.

V/R

:. Josh

Raansu's Avatar


Raansu
01.22.2014 , 09:42 AM | #2
1.) Bolster
2.) It literally only takes a weekend to get a full set of pvp gear. Less if you bothered to save comms and even less so if you bother to do the weapon trick. PvP gear is not hard to come by. Stop being lazy and blaming it on the gear. Aside from bolster bolstering some pve gear too high the system as is works fine. Top end raid gear isn't good for pvp and top in pvp gear isn't good for pve and that's exactly how it should be. At least you have bolster to give you a middle ground in pvp. So stop whining about gear in a genre that is purely about progression.

AK_Snowbat's Avatar


AK_Snowbat
01.22.2014 , 09:52 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Raansu View Post
1.) Bolster
2.) It literally only takes a weekend to get a full set of pvp gear. Less if you bothered to save comms and even less so if you bother to do the weapon trick. PvP gear is not hard to come by. Stop being lazy and blaming it on the gear. Aside from bolster bolstering some pve gear too high the system as is works fine. Top end raid gear isn't good for pvp and top in pvp gear isn't good for pve and that's exactly how it should be. At least you have bolster to give you a middle ground in pvp. So stop whining about gear in a genre that is purely about progression.
Clearly you missed the point of the post. It wasn't me whining..as i forecasted people like you would say..and explianed in the post that it wasn't, i'll do it again. It was about the game becomming something other than how they sold it and to save it from it's certian slow death as it's nothing more than a WOW clone with a Star Wars Skin. People won't tend to leave years of game play and friends behind to join another game that's just like theirs but shiney.

If you want this game to grow from it's current state, go back to your promises to keep things like expertise out of the game and keep pvp gear and raiding gear scaled so a player who pvp's full time can raid and a full time raider can pvp without needing 2 sets of gear.

The initial attraction this game set out to have was it's attraction to casual players and i'm sorry but a casual player cannot get a full set of pvp gear in a weekend. Myself for example with a wife, 3 kids, a farm, 2 horses, 2 pigs and 11 chickens can't afford to spend an entire weeked playing a game that has no real life purpose or gain. I know i'm an unusal example however after speaking with family and friends i served with who live the city life and work full time they find themselves with about as much time to play as i do. That life of passing through our 20's accomplishing nothing but gaming while wasting enough time to earn a doctorate degree is behind most of us. When we play we would like to actually be able to play and not "grind" for crap that'll be replaced in 2 months to keep the vocal minority happy...

Marius_Xerxes's Avatar


Marius_Xerxes
01.22.2014 , 10:11 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by AK_Snowbat View Post
That life of passing through our 20's accomplishing nothing but gaming while wasting enough time to earn a doctorate degree is behind most of us. When we play we would like to actually be able to play and not "grind" for crap that'll be replaced in 2 months to keep the vocal minority happy...
Well I think you have touched on something here that is more the real point. After getting married and having kids myself, I don't have the time for games like I used to much like you describe. This is a good thing, though. At some point we have to "grow up" and move beyond our video games. Or, at the very least, realize we don't have the time to invest like we used to and so not expect to be able to get the same level of rewards as we used to in a shorter amount of time.

In the end, that's what your post, to me, is saying. Ive grown up and have more responsibility IRL, so can you please change how the game works so that I can get the same stuff I used to be able to get, but in a shorter amount of time because I don't have a lot of time to spare anymore.

We aren't high school'ers and college kids anymore. We are adults with adult lives. We can't reasonably expect our past times (in this case, MMO's) to change format just because we don't have the time we used to for them.

Single player games like KOTOR and Mass Effect are the game type that fills that role. Pick up and put down as we have time for them.

FPS games can work well in that regard too, but most modern FPS games still require time investment to unlock better weapons and upgrades for said weapons.

Atalantia's Avatar


Atalantia
01.22.2014 , 10:17 PM | #5
I know that I do PvP religiously until I reach 55 then that toon gets retired and crafts on their ship and roll something else to get to 55 and PvP where gear is not the only determining factor of winning and loosing.

Just my thoughts on the subject, when i get tired of leveling a toon i take a 2-5 months break and then return and top them off and start another.

However all MMO's are "I have better gear so I win" games nothing to see here, move along
Was before F2P

CaraExas's Avatar


CaraExas
01.22.2014 , 10:20 PM | #6
removing expertise is something they would have had to do a long while ago.

a very long while ago.

remove expertise now, and every PvE'er just got a huge leg up over anyone in full ranked gear.
Thanil: Assassin

Buffsorcs: Mara

Loominaty: Sorc

Raansu's Avatar


Raansu
01.22.2014 , 10:37 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by AK_Snowbat View Post
Clearly you missed the point of the post. It wasn't me whining..as i forecasted people like you would say..and explianed in the post that it wasn't, i'll do it again. It was about the game becomming something other than how they sold it and to save it from it's certian slow death as it's nothing more than a WOW clone with a Star Wars Skin. People won't tend to leave years of game play and friends behind to join another game that's just like theirs but shiney.

If you want this game to grow from it's current state, go back to your promises to keep things like expertise out of the game and keep pvp gear and raiding gear scaled so a player who pvp's full time can raid and a full time raider can pvp without needing 2 sets of gear.

The initial attraction this game set out to have was it's attraction to casual players and i'm sorry but a casual player cannot get a full set of pvp gear in a weekend. Myself for example with a wife, 3 kids, a farm, 2 horses, 2 pigs and 11 chickens can't afford to spend an entire weeked playing a game that has no real life purpose or gain. I know i'm an unusal example however after speaking with family and friends i served with who live the city life and work full time they find themselves with about as much time to play as i do. That life of passing through our 20's accomplishing nothing but gaming while wasting enough time to earn a doctorate degree is behind most of us. When we play we would like to actually be able to play and not "grind" for crap that'll be replaced in 2 months to keep the vocal minority happy...
Oh give me a break. I was in the military for several years and still managed to find my enjoyment in MMO's and also getting fully geared in whatever game I played. Currently I work full time and go to college and still have several toons in full pvp gear. You act like only kids are the ones who have accomplished anything in this game. MMO's are about progression, if you don't like that style of game play then you REALLY SHOULD NOT BE PLAYING MMO'S.

As far as pvp goes. Bolster works perfectly fine. I've gone into warzones with fresh 55's in full 58 mods from the makeb vendor and blue implants/earpiece from the GTN and had full expertise and still managed to do better than my entire team. Complaining about a gear gap is nothing more than excuse. You have bolster to fill in the gap and playing the game results in gradually getting the gear. If you're doing poorly in pvp, its not the gear, its you.

At the end of the day you either deal with it or move on to something else because the meta game with gear is never going to change. That is what appeals to mmo gamers and that is pretty much how it will always be. I enjoy progression and gear grinds so I play mmo's. You don't like that? Fine that's your thing, but don't force a change in a genre to appeal to you being lazy. There are plenty of other games out there to fit that role for you.

AK_Snowbat's Avatar


AK_Snowbat
01.24.2014 , 04:22 AM | #8
again, ya'll are missing the point. This isn't about me whining but about me pointing out that the game is a shadow of what they sold and no different than any other MMO. What's the attractiveness?
One person said "PVE would have a huge advantage" not if they balance the gear as they first inteded.
another said along the lines of "grow up and accept it" to shorten to the point. i'm not asking for anything i wasn't actively talking about in WoW. Again, i mentioned that it was an attractive lure for this game at launch.

Notice the activity at pre level 55 pvp then realize that there's no expertise at pre-55 and yet it's still fun and productive. People actually play it and quite often. One poster went to far to mention that he'll reroll just to advoid end game pvp, where's the fun in that? where's the desire to stay and keep playing at? Thus the title "fate of pvp in swtor"

Ya'll are so quick to assume that i'm just someone whining when i'm actually trying to have an intelligent conversation. This isn't about me, what i want or what i'd like to make my life easier. In fact, my gunslinger is in full pvp gear for lvl 55, it's not all of the current set but it works. The point of the post was about my disire to see the game evolve into a competitive place in the MMO market. I feel there are several changes they can make but the first and best would be to stop this default action of catering to the vocal minority of hard core, end-game pvpers who feel they are the best but 50% of their "game" comes from their gear. If they were truly good at what they did they wouldn't need to sit here defending their handicap.

Atalantia's Avatar


Atalantia
01.25.2014 , 12:05 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by AK_Snowbat View Post
If they were truly good at what they did they wouldn't need to sit here defending their handicap.
I got a tickle out of this, sometimes I think that's what they do
Was before F2P

Heal-To-Full's Avatar


Heal-To-Full
01.25.2014 , 12:21 PM | #10
You only need PvP gear for ganking.
Wear PvE 66 gear and get bolstered to full Conqueror equivalent in warzones. And if you don't have that, literally anything will get bolstered to full Partisan equivalent. Even in full 78s you're not automatically dead... 40k hp with 20% DR is ~comparable to 30k hp with 40% DR, although you'll be next to impossible to heal.

The only problem is ganking where you have to wear PvP gear while doing PvE dailies if you don't want to get ganked.
What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence of the Sith race and the Sith people, the glory of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the Empire, so that we may fulfill the mission allotted us by the Force itself. Everything must be examined from this point of view and used or rejected according to its utility.