Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

2.5 Dread Council 16 HM last phase


THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
12.15.2013 , 07:06 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
You said 16 man can cheese mechanics and you've given zero evidence of this so far. Cheesing mechanics is like when stealth classes can remove the adds in Withering Horror, not when a fight is shorter than normal due to an unusually low health pool on a boss. Both fights require the same exact mechanics to beat.
Of course you can cheese the mechanics, you can add phases, you can lose more people for laser, you can cheese through multiple dread Monsters, you can cheese through Inferno...

And no, one fight requires you to kill atleast 3-4 add phases before the laser, the other fight requires you to kill 2 add phases before the laser. How is that any different to clearing 4 add phases on WH without an assassin and 2 add phases with an assassin.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
As for losing people, you can lose the exact same percentage of people in 8 man that you can in 16 man and still win. As long as 1 healer, 1 tank, and 1 DPS are alive at the end, you can beat it regardless of how many you started with so that means nothing.
3/8 = 3/16 ?! I dont think so.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
Sorry, but I'm calling complete ******** on your claim. No team has beaten either 16 man NiM TFB or SnV using 8 DPS with full 72 gear or anything even close to that. I certainly don't see your kill shots in the NiM TFB and SnV threads. I see 6 guilds that beat 16 man NiM TFB and SnV and your guild does not appear there nor does any other one that even claimed to beat it with less than 10 DPS during progression. Even then, one of those only beat both of them with full 75 gear after having done it for months in 8 man. You can claim whatever you feel like, but you have no proof.

You can beat Withering Horror with much less people, but that's there's no realistic way to do TFB and most of other bosses with their own DPS checks. It's nice that you have calculated that it can theoretically happen, but it doesn't matter since it never actually did. Based on your ridiculous calculations, a team could have beaten pre-nerf Dread Guards with 4 Juggernaught DPS, but of course that would never actually happen since 4 melee sub-optimal DPS back then would have not worked in reality.
I was not talking about 4 melee dps, i was just talking about the dps requirements for 16 man and 8 man, i never said anything about the dps composition, so don't lie. DPS requirement =/= DPS composition.

16 man had 62% more life with the same enrage timer but with 150% more dps player when they take 10 dps. So simple facts, but hey one can ignore them and instead start attacking other persons and start lieing.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
I have not insulted you at all and you haven't disproven anything I've said. You just make wild claims with no evidence. Also, TFB can easily one shot a tank using the debuff from the orbs in the first phase (2-3 stacks is absurd damage) and getting hit by the tentacle if they don't use their defensive cooldowns appropriately.
Who uses the debuff from orbs on the tanks . Oh and i think i have disproven every wrong Information with my posts.
Zahik - DiLiH - The Red Eclipse

Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
12.15.2013 , 05:30 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
Of course you can cheese the mechanics, you can add phases, you can lose more people for laser, you can cheese through multiple dread Monsters, you can cheese through Inferno...

And no, one fight requires you to kill atleast 3-4 add phases before the laser, the other fight requires you to kill 2 add phases before the laser. How is that any different to clearing 4 add phases on WH without an assassin and 2 add phases with an assassin.

3/8 = 3/16 ?! I dont think so.
There's a big difference between them because you can completely ignore the small adds for WH completely by having 2 stealth characters. Thus, you remove the mechanic of having to deal with them entirely. Every statement you have made regarding what can be cheesed in 16 man is wrong or can be done in 8 man as well.

Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
I was not talking about 4 melee dps, i was just talking about the dps requirements for 16 man and 8 man, i never said anything about the dps composition, so don't lie. DPS requirement =/= DPS composition.

16 man had 62% more life with the same enrage timer but with 150% more dps player when they take 10 dps. So simple facts, but hey one can ignore them and instead start attacking other persons and start lieing.
No one said they are the same and I have yet to attack you so please stop playing the victim. All I've done is correct your false statements and try to show that your theory is different from reality. You have no proof whatsoever of you and these other progression guilds beating 16 man with 8 non-overgeared DPS and you have lost all credibility with your incredulous claims of "non-progression" teams beating 16 man NiM TFB and/or SnV with 8 DPS even now, much less doing it without being overgeared.

We're done here, but in the future, I would advise you to keep your ignorance to yourself on subjects on which you lack experience and knowledge like this one. It's not appreciated when people like you decide to spread misinformation and lie to the community. Of course, this is an online forum so it's a frequent problem that will always exist, but there is no reason for you to contribute to it with blatantly false information. You've always been better than this before and stooping to this level just seems unlike you.

I don't blame you for taking the easy way out in doing 8 mans as the path of least resistance is very tempting and most people don't have the time or dedication needed to do 16 man progression. If some day you want something closer to a challenge, you can always try 16 mans out during the next NiM tier during progression. Good luck.
The Harbinger
Intrepid

Guardian/Juggernaut Tank Guide: From Beginner to Master

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
12.15.2013 , 05:58 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
There's a big difference between them because you can completely ignore the small adds for WH completely by having 2 stealth characters. Thus, you remove the mechanic of having to deal with them entirely. Every statement you have made regarding what can be cheesed in 16 man is wrong or can be done in 8 man as well.
Still People call it mechanic cheesing when you just have 1 shadow/assassin tanking. Partially removing or fully removing a mechanic is cheesing. First Lie from you. My statements are simply correct, you don't even try to defute them.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
No one said they are the same and I have yet to attack you so please stop playing the victim. All I've done is correct your false statements and try to show that your theory is different from reality. You have no proof whatsoever of you and these other progression guilds beating 16 man with 8 non-overgeared DPS and you have lost all credibility with your incredulous claims of "non-progression" teams beating 16 man NiM TFB and/or SnV with 8 DPS even now, much less doing it without being overgeared.
I have never said that non-Progression Teams beat 16 man nim tfb. I said that they easily meet the dps requirements for tfb nim 16 man as most of the 8 man enrages even on nim are very easy.
Pre DG Nim required atleast 200 dps more from every dps, still guilds killed it with 72 gear.
Also, as you can't deny that tfb nim dg has 62% more health in 16 man nim but you have 150% more dps Players, your first part is simply trying to spread misinformation on the forums. Pathethic.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
We're done here, but in the future, I would advise you to keep your ignorance to yourself on subjects on which you lack experience and knowledge like this one. It's not appreciated when people like you decide to spread misinformation and lie to the community. Of course, this is an online forum so it's a frequent problem that will always exist, but there is no reason for you to contribute to it with blatantly false information. You've always been better than this before and stooping to this level just seems unlike you.

I don't blame you for taking the easy way out in doing 8 mans as the path of least resistance is very tempting and most people don't have the time or dedication needed to do 16 man progression. If some day you want something closer to a challenge, you can always try 16 mans out during the next NiM tier during progression. Good luck.
I am never lieing. But you are not understanding that enrage timers are way tighter in 8 man then in 16 man. Well i guess some people are not smart enough to know wether 62 or 150 is the bigger number.

It's you trying to spread misinformations around the forums.
I said tfb and sv nim 16 man are as difficult as sv/tfb 8 man nim and i know that the top 16 man and 8 man nim guilds all aggree on that. If some random person thinks different, hey who cares.
Zahik - DiLiH - The Red Eclipse

HoboWithAStick's Avatar


HoboWithAStick
12.15.2013 , 06:23 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by VoW_LugNut View Post
This was the only fight in these new ops where 16 man was harder. The rest of the fights were completely faceroll easy compared to 8 man. When the power of the masters channel started, we lost 3 dps within seconds before the healers could even react lol.
I would somewhat agree that 16 man can be easier if you look at it from a dps and healing per person perspective but having 16 people all following mechanics can be an issue.

We can clear both new ops in 8 man very fast in one night but when it comes to 16 man it almost always takes much longer.

Why 16 Man is harder to me.

-Finding 16 Competent players
-Harder to manage 16 players
-Mechanics generally wipe the raid very easily (Brontus balls and Corrupter zero concussion grenades)
-Hand holding becomes very hard compared to 8 man
-Boss damage output often not scaled realistically (28k force push on sin tanks dread guard fight)
-Disconnects and computer issues are almost a sure thing in 16M raids.

OneShotXV's Avatar


OneShotXV
12.15.2013 , 06:48 PM | #35
Im completely amazed this argument has carried on for like 3 pages now

Look, if you learn the fights on 8 man, progress on 8 man, gear up on 8 man, and then go back into 16 its going to seem easier, and if you gear up/progress on 16 and then drop to 8s, then the 8s are going to seem easier. Arguing about the current tier of HMs is ridiculous anyway, since theyre a joke on either mode, are tuned for like 72 gear, when everyone went in with full 75s and is now in nearly full 78s.

8s are a harder DPS check (at least in the last NiM Tier, i dont think any bosses enrage in DP/DF on either mode) and your raid composition is more important. Mechanics and coordination are more important in 16, and the tank/heal check is harder. I think some fights are more difficult on 8, and some more difficult on 16 probably.

Maybe bioware should just do what WoW is doing in WoD and make nightmare all one raid size in between the two then maybe we could all get along.

(Also im pretty sure no one has ever 6 healed anything in 16 man)
<Chosen>
Skyfll - Sniper
Izz - Marauder
Hlo - Sorcerer

Banezza's Avatar


Banezza
12.17.2013 , 03:06 AM | #36
So... lets get back to topic. My guild had the same problem, but we only had 1 sorc healer (im guessing thats a no-no ). I was thinking this week - minimum 3 sorc healers, maybe 5 healers total (2 operatives along 3 sorcs).

When final phase starts ditch 1 grp, lets say 2 tanks and 2 lowest dps are in that grp. Healers heal rest, we have 5 snipers so shield is up for like almost 2 minutes, bloodthrist etc... doable ?
Sanja'Tigrica
YesYes-good
Mostly HarmlessToFN EU

VoW_LugNut's Avatar


VoW_LugNut
12.19.2013 , 07:02 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Banezza View Post
So... lets get back to topic. My guild had the same problem, but we only had 1 sorc healer (im guessing thats a no-no ). I was thinking this week - minimum 3 sorc healers, maybe 5 healers total (2 operatives along 3 sorcs).

When final phase starts ditch 1 grp, lets say 2 tanks and 2 lowest dps are in that grp. Healers heal rest, we have 5 snipers so shield is up for like almost 2 minutes, bloodthrist etc... doable ?
You shouldn't purposely lose anyone, but yes. Tanks are absolutely last priority for heals during this phase. Healers should focus on keeping the dps and themselves up.
Lugnut - PT Tank
Hatred - The Harbinger
Quote: Originally Posted by BruceMaclean View Post
16-man is also more forgiving to mistakes and should increase the chances of a successful group.

Orderken's Avatar


Orderken
12.19.2013 , 11:29 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
I don't know a single 16 man nim progression guild that just uses 4 healers for nim progression. Most used 5-6 healers.
What 16m guild uses more than 4 healers for progression? I believe that none does.

For a couple of fights with low DPS and high healing requirements, having one DPS spec hybrid or full heals may be safer for progression or title runs. But 4.5- or 5-healing is the exception for 16m rather than the rule.
Orderken, <Hates You>, Prophecy of the Five
Guides for Healing - Sorcerer / Sage
Models for PVE Healing - Sorcerer or Sage / Mercenary or Commando / Operative or Scoundrel

Flyluke's Avatar


Flyluke
12.22.2013 , 11:49 AM | #39
We downed it last week, after 10minutes of tactics talk we just one shoot it ^^

Just as a precaution we opted for 5 healers 3 scoundrels 1 sorc 1 commando. We really took our time to get the bosses right on the edge of the phase push und punched them as hard as we could. First boss hit the floor before anyone could take too much damage and we pushed further until all of them were dead.

The Point of this phase is that you have to keep everybody alive. If one person dies the damage output of the bosses (which is fixed) will get devided by 15 and not 16. So it will become harder and harder to keep the rest alive.

One trick we considerd was to keep up the tank to the very last and then he pops saber reflect... This will inflict 100k+ damage to the boss, but is quite a last resort move ...

Have fun downing it. I guess its also quite possible with 4 healers

LohrandOrda's Avatar


LohrandOrda
12.23.2013 , 05:29 PM | #40
yes it is: good timing, good preparations, thats all you need. if you kill 2 without loosing more then 3 DD you get them (if you don't use every CD at the beginning then over the last phase). the 8 vs 16 discussion is more boring then Eternity Vault nowadays...
"Don't you know who the f*** I am? I'm the Juggernaut, B**ch!"
Equipment makes me good,
class knowledge makes me better,
button mashing makes me best!