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2.5 Dread Council 16 HM last phase


VoW_LugNut's Avatar


VoW_LugNut
12.12.2013 , 02:28 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Panzerfire View Post
When my group failed was when people slacked ^^ keep at it since it's a fun fight
Oh, we still downed it on the next attempt, just made sure that we had everyone topped off before pushing the bosses on the last phase on the next pull lol
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Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
12.12.2013 , 06:04 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by VoW_LugNut View Post
This was the only fight in these new ops where 16 man was harder. The rest of the fights were completely faceroll easy compared to 8 man. When the power of the masters channel started, we lost 3 dps within seconds before the healers could even react lol.
This happens when people are bad and/or are used to only running 8 mans. With groups that don't require a gear tier above to do 16 man HM or NiM content, there is only one fight that's more difficult in 8 man.
The Harbinger
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Docmal's Avatar


Docmal
12.12.2013 , 07:19 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
This happens when people are bad and/or are used to only running 8 mans. With groups that don't require a gear tier above to do 16 man HM or NiM content, there is only one fight that's more difficult in 8 man.
Dude you are totally delusional. We have done everything in 8m and everything in 16m with the exception of final phase council 16m which we tried for the first time last night. I can say without a doubt that every fight is harder in 8 man. Everytime we do a 16m everyone in our chat is saying how it is faceroll. I love when these uber guild guys come in and claim 16m is harder... Having done both I just have to laugh at them.
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Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
12.12.2013 , 08:11 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Docmal View Post
Dude you are totally delusional. We have done everything in 8m and everything in 16m with the exception of final phase council 16m which we tried for the first time last night. I can say without a doubt that every fight is harder in 8 man. Everytime we do a 16m everyone in our chat is saying how it is faceroll. I love when these uber guild guys come in and claim 16m is harder... Having done both I just have to laugh at them.
So have we and 8 man is significantly easier in almost every fight so the only delusional people are those like you. The fact that you have better gear than we did when we did it (before nerf) and struggle with any aspect of the fight (after nerf) just shows the difference in skill. Hence, my point in that 8 man guilds that can only do 16 man content with superior gear and more experience is proven.
The Harbinger
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THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
12.13.2013 , 02:38 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
So have we and 8 man is significantly easier in almost every fight so the only delusional people are those like you. The fact that you have better gear than we did when we did it (before nerf) and struggle with any aspect of the fight (after nerf) just shows the difference in skill. Hence, my point in that 8 man guilds that can only do 16 man content with superior gear and more experience is proven.
Actually 16 man hm in the current tier is way easier then 8 man (assuming you have groups of equal level), there's not a single fight were you would need more then 8 dps, so you could go with 6 healers for all the hm content without problems, for example.

The only fight i would consider a little bit more difficult in 16 man is Dread Masters and that's mainly because the optimal tactic for the first phase of the boss depends a lot on the group setup and you need a slightly better preparation before entering the final phase. The rest is easier.

8 Man guilds usually have problems with 16 man because of
a) a lot of lag, as they might no have upgraded their pc for 16 man Operation (there's quite a big Performance difference between 8 and 16 man)
b) not having equally good people or not even enough people to get a full group

Draxxus, Corruptor Zero, Brontes, Bestia, Tyrans and Raptus all have mechanics that can be cheesed away on 16 man. For Nefra and Grob'Thok you could theoretically take more then 8 healers and still wouldnt have problems with enrage.

Of course group communication and coordination is more difficult when you have double the people in the raid. But in terms of actual requirements for each individual person, 8 man was always more difficult (atleast as long as i remember) then 16 man.
Zahik - DiLiH - The Red Eclipse

Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
12.13.2013 , 06:23 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
Actually 16 man hm in the current tier is way easier then 8 man (assuming you have groups of equal level), there's not a single fight were you would need more then 8 dps, so you could go with 6 healers for all the hm content without problems, for example.

The only fight i would consider a little bit more difficult in 16 man is Dread Masters and that's mainly because the optimal tactic for the first phase of the boss depends a lot on the group setup and you need a slightly better preparation before entering the final phase. The rest is easier.

8 Man guilds usually have problems with 16 man because of
a) a lot of lag, as they might no have upgraded their pc for 16 man Operation (there's quite a big Performance difference between 8 and 16 man)
b) not having equally good people or not even enough people to get a full group

Draxxus, Corruptor Zero, Brontes, Bestia, Tyrans and Raptus all have mechanics that can be cheesed away on 16 man. For Nefra and Grob'Thok you could theoretically take more then 8 healers and still wouldnt have problems with enrage.

Of course group communication and coordination is more difficult when you have double the people in the raid. But in terms of actual requirements for each individual person, 8 man was always more difficult (atleast as long as i remember) then 16 man.
No one is going to run 8 DPS on 16 man HM DF/DP unless they are already geared out with mostly 78s, which already defeats the purpose of claiming any sort of difficulty, regardless of whether it's 8 man or 16. Hence, my point about people overgearing 16 man (as well as being more experienced) and then trying to say it's easier is ridiculous.

As for mechanic cheesing, please explain exactly what mechanics you can cheese on those fights on 16 man that you can't on 8. Does your team magically live when standing in the laser at the end of Corrupter Zero if you have more healers on 16 man? Or if people stand in the Inferno repeatedly on 16 man? Or if they stand in the red circle on Bestia? No, they won't. It's irrelevant how many healers you have if your tanks don't understand that they have to re-taunt Draxus when he does his aggro drop or if Raptus cleaves your entire team constantly or knocks your tanks to their death. There are plenty of one-shot mechanics in HM DF/DP if you fail to do them correctly so I don't know what you are talking about when it comes to cheesing mechanics.

If you are talking about being able to have more healers, then you can do the same on 8 man as Nefra and Tyrans can definitely be done with 3 DPS and I'm sure there are other fights as well.

Beyond group communication and coordination, positioning and survivability are far more important and skillful on every single player in 16 man. For example, on 16 man HM Brontes, healers can be killed instantly once the Fingers spawn in the beginning of the fight if they happen to target the same person. Also, the massive spikes you see only on 16 man are far more dangerous than those on 8 man, which is why it's a joke when 8 man teams try to complain about spikiness. Positioning is crucial in many fights especially since the areas are designed for 8 people and you have to fit in 16 people (Bestia is a good example).

In the previous tier, 16 man NiM TFB and SnV was far more difficult and I'm fairly sure it's well-known that NiM EC in 16 man was much, much harder than 8 man. So maybe 8 man was harder in the days of EV/KP or HM TFB and SnV, but I have no idea since I almost never did 16 man then. The only fights in general that are much easier in 16 man are SM ones and world boss fights like Toborro's Courtyard and the one in the Gree event.
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THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
12.13.2013 , 07:39 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
No one is going to run 8 DPS on 16 man HM DF/DP unless they are already geared out with mostly 78s, which already defeats the purpose of claiming any sort of difficulty, regardless of whether it's 8 man or 16. Hence, my point about people overgearing 16 man (as well as being more experienced) and then trying to say it's easier is ridiculous.
No that's incorrect, even for previous nim progression most of the 16 man guilds just used 8-9 DPS as enrage timers are easy in 16 man compared to 8 man. I don't know a single 16 man nim progression guild that just uses 4 healers for nim progression. Most used 5-6 healers.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
As for mechanic cheesing, please explain exactly what mechanics you can cheese on those fights on 16 man that you can't on 8. Does your team magically live when standing in the laser at the end of Corrupter Zero if you have more healers on 16 man? Or if people stand in the Inferno repeatedly on 16 man? Or if they stand in the red circle on Bestia? No, they won't. It's irrelevant how many healers you have if your tanks don't understand that they have to re-taunt Draxus when he does his aggro drop or if Raptus cleaves your entire team constantly or knocks your tanks to their death. There are plenty of one-shot mechanics in HM DF/DP if you fail to do them correctly so I don't know what you are talking about when it comes to cheesing mechanics.
Corruptor Zero just has 2 add phases in 16 man hm and before the laser he has less then 10% life (6-8%). That means you could lose 10 People on the laser and still kill him easily.

Corruptor Zero has 3-4 add phases in 8 man hm, the fight last much longer (cause his has just 30% less hp in 8 man hm), and you usually get the laser when he has about 20% life left.

On Tyrans you can lose more then 8 people to Inferno. The damage on the tanks is not scaled properly, so the more people you lose on 16 man hm the easier the fight is getting (unless you just lose healer) cause the enrage timer is not existant. On my last 16 man hm raid this week i took on average 1100 damage per second on tyrans as a tank (and the other tank just took very slightly more).

On Bestia, its the same, Tanks can easily tank more then 3 Monsters cause the damage is not scaled properly compared to 8 man.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
If you are talking about being able to have more healers, then you can do the same on 8 man as Nefra and Tyrans can definitely be done with 3 DPS and I'm sure there are other fights as well.
On 8 man it's possible on a few fights yes, but on 16 man you can bring multiple additional healers for every fight. On 8 man nim tfb/sv i can't remember a single fight were you were able to bring 3 healers, which is completely different to 16 man nim.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
Beyond group communication and coordination, positioning and survivability are far more important and skillful on every single player in 16 man. For example, on 16 man HM Brontes, healers can be killed instantly once the Fingers spawn in the beginning of the fight if they happen to target the same person. Also, the massive spikes you see only on 16 man are far more dangerous than those on 8 man, which is why it's a joke when 8 man teams try to complain about spikiness. Positioning is crucial in many fights especially since the areas are designed for 8 people and you have to fit in 16 people (Bestia is a good example).

In the previous tier, 16 man NiM TFB and SnV was far more difficult and I'm fairly sure it's well-known that NiM EC in 16 man was much, much harder than 8 man. So maybe 8 man was harder in the days of EV/KP or HM TFB and SnV, but I have no idea since I almost never did 16 man then. The only fights in general that are much easier in 16 man are SM ones and world boss fights like Toborro's Courtyard and the one in the Gree event.
Not if your tanks guard healers and if the healers are spreading out accordingly. Spikes or healing are not really an issue, if you can bring 3 times the number of healers (apart from Bioware screwing up damage on certain mechanics, which i have not seen this Tier at all). As long as Bioware refuses to create tough enrage timers for 10 dps in 16 man operations you can basically overheal your way through normal damage.

That leaves it to what i said before: Communication and Coordination. But in terms of your own dps/healing or tanking Rotation 16 man is nowere comparable to 8 man.

16 man NiM tfb and snv was not more difficult then 8 man nim tfb/sv. They had some twisted mechanics in 16 man nim (were damage was not scaled properly) but you also could also take additional healers to manage that. In the end 8 and 16 man nim tfb/sv were about comparable.

This tier is different, damage in 16 man is scaling properly or actually just the same as 8 man (raptus for example) and dps checks are more strict on 8 man.
Zahik - DiLiH - The Red Eclipse

namesaretough's Avatar


namesaretough
12.13.2013 , 09:08 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
I know not a single 16 man nim progression guild that just uses 4 healers for nim progression.
Hi!
Well, except for cartel warlords, but they're particularly mean.
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Holdt
12.13.2013 , 09:31 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by namesaretough View Post
Hi!
Well, except for cartel warlords, but they're particularly mean.
You can't use Severity as an example. Most guilds don't have healers with balls of steel.
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Docmal's Avatar


Docmal
12.13.2013 , 10:07 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
So have we and 8 man is significantly easier in almost every fight so the only delusional people are those like you. The fact that you have better gear than we did when we did it (before nerf) and struggle with any aspect of the fight (after nerf) just shows the difference in skill. Hence, my point in that 8 man guilds that can only do 16 man content with superior gear and more experience is proven.
This is soo eye roll... You don't know anything about my group. You don't know what gear we have, you don't know if we have skill or if we don't. So don't sit there with your little epeen hanging out making assumptions.

The only thing you do know is that on our first time in 16m hm dp we breezed through the entire place up until the final phase of Dread Council. I am sure your super friends and you cleared all of it on your first attempt and laughed at all the others whose epeens are clearly smaller and more insignificant than yours.

The truth is that real progression raiders are laughing at you while they do 16m content because you think its hard.
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