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Hi I just felt like chiming in to say that...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
Hi I just felt like chiming in to say that...
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Sensational's Avatar


Sensational
12.22.2011 , 11:46 PM | #81
Quote: Originally Posted by E-Argos View Post
Once you get a point in either Force Clap or Stasis Mastery as a Defense Guardian, Master Strike becomes a big and unavoidable nuke, unless they use their "Trinket ability," in which case you've at least gained an advantage
True, yet going that deep defense is bad for both PvE and PvP.
Ventures / Republic EU / Progression Raiding, Organized PvP and a Social Division for awesome people.

Livestream - Best Guardian in the World - PvP/Raids

Helig's Avatar


Helig
12.23.2011 , 12:49 AM | #82
Quote: Originally Posted by Sensational View Post
True, yet going that deep defense is bad for both PvE and PvP.
Err, lolwut? Control is an integral part of Defense PvP. Without tier 5 Defense, you're gimping yourself (and your team) horribly. As a tank, your job is to be a pain for the other team. Juggling Guard between focus targets, taunting, locking down priority targets.

As for PvE, I wouldn't gain a whole lot losing Tier 5-6. I wouldn't get Protector without losing Shield specialization, which, while may not seem a lot, contributes to your crit-immunity (swtor-tank.com has the info, if you're interested). Not even thinking of getting Commanding Awe. You'd have to lose Courage (full of awesome if you know how to use it) and Pacification (not the best talent around, but is an excellent support for Swelling Winds).
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

E-Argos's Avatar


E-Argos
12.23.2011 , 05:49 AM | #83
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
Err, lolwut? Control is an integral part of Defense PvP. Without tier 5 Defense, you're gimping yourself (and your team) horribly. As a tank, your job is to be a pain for the other team. Juggling Guard between focus targets, taunting, locking down priority targets.

As for PvE, I wouldn't gain a whole lot losing Tier 5-6. I wouldn't get Protector without losing Shield specialization, which, while may not seem a lot, contributes to your crit-immunity (swtor-tank.com has the info, if you're interested). Not even thinking of getting Commanding Awe. You'd have to lose Courage (full of awesome if you know how to use it) and Pacification (not the best talent around, but is an excellent support for Swelling Winds).
Helig's totally right. In PVP, the Force Leap stun can be a huge boon, especially since you can follow it up with Pommel Strike, Master Strike, etc, and Stasis Mastery just adds too much control to pass up... Taking someone out of the fight for three seconds or forcing him to waste a trinket CD, with no cost other than a GCD AND you gain Focus while it works as well? You're seriously gimping yourself if you miss out on it, maybe not in pure numbers, but in utility.

And as far as PVE goes, same reasons he described. People are still complaining that Guardians don't have enough tools for threat management and control and Tier 5 has exactly the tools for it.
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VoidJustice's Avatar


VoidJustice
12.23.2011 , 08:39 AM | #84
Outside of the story my Trooper does EVERYTHING better than my Jedi. Damage, Pvp, Pve. The only thing keeping me on my Guardian... is the force. This class may be the most underpowered class in the game. I don't know how much better it gets at 30 but to be so underpowered at 10 - 30 is too much.

I hope Im not wasting my time on this class, although I fear I am.

Aisaka_Taiga's Avatar


Aisaka_Taiga
12.23.2011 , 01:42 PM | #85
Seems like a personal problem, ive had 0 difficulty pre30, i think you were just bad at it.

Not trying to flame, but it seriously sounds like you just didnt have a grasp on how to make the most of it pre 30 and then decided to cry about it because you had to put in some extra work.

This is in reply to the original poster.

Sensational's Avatar


Sensational
12.23.2011 , 01:47 PM | #86
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
Err, lolwut? Control is an integral part of Defense PvP. Without tier 5 Defense, you're gimping yourself (and your team) horribly. As a tank, your job is to be a pain for the other team. Juggling Guard between focus targets, taunting, locking down priority targets.
Going that deep for a single target stun (Where you already have an immobilize from the same ability) and turning a channeled stun into a non-channeled stun isn't worth it in comparison to the hybrid build, you can do both damage and better tanking with other setups.

That's just my opinion though, but I usually do pretty well in practice so I guess it works

Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
As for PvE, I wouldn't gain a whole lot losing Tier 5-6. I wouldn't get Protector without losing Shield specialization, which, while may not seem a lot, contributes to your crit-immunity (swtor-tank.com has the info, if you're interested). Not even thinking of getting Commanding Awe. You'd have to lose Courage (full of awesome if you know how to use it) and Pacification (not the best talent around, but is an excellent support for Swelling Winds).
If you generate enough agro neither serves a purpose, with the hybrid build you already have free sweeps and blade storm is free on every leap, which you use a lot as a guardian tank.

I sacrifice the shield chance for the blanket reduction from Vigi, it depends a bit on how the fights are set up later on though. Overall efficiency vs Spike damage and such. Guardian has a whole heap of defensive cooldowns though, so crit/spike defense is less of an issue.
Ventures / Republic EU / Progression Raiding, Organized PvP and a Social Division for awesome people.

Livestream - Best Guardian in the World - PvP/Raids

SunwindIon's Avatar


SunwindIon
12.23.2011 , 01:48 PM | #87
like dis if u cry ever time.

5ever <3

Helig's Avatar


Helig
12.23.2011 , 03:59 PM | #88
Quote: Originally Posted by Sensational View Post
Going that deep for a single target stun (Where you already have an immobilize from the same ability) and turning a channeled stun into a non-channeled stun isn't worth it in comparison to the hybrid build, you can do both damage and better tanking with other setups.

That's just my opinion though, but I usually do pretty well in practice so I guess it works
Instant Stasis deserves more credit that you give it. An extra stun is divine for pvp. Stun instead of immobilize on Charge is also worth more than it looks, since it can't be resisted with immobilization-protection powers, which are available to quite a few specs.

You don't really gain a whole lot in Vigilance, unless you go all the way to Defender.

Quote:
If you generate enough agro neither serves a purpose, with the hybrid build you already have free sweeps and blade storm is free on every leap, which you use a lot as a guardian tank.

I sacrifice the shield chance for the blanket reduction from Vigi, it depends a bit on how the fights are set up later on though. Overall efficiency vs Spike damage and such. Guardian has a whole heap of defensive cooldowns though, so crit/spike defense is less of an issue.
With proper prioritizing, I've yet to experience aggro issues. I had Troopers and Consulars spam AoE like mad on packs I was tanking and I lost it only once or twice - when I screwed up with a skill. But there's always the AoE taunt to remedy that.

Sacrificing avoidance and crit defense is *not* the way of the Tank. Also, you'll be tanking in Soresu. And you'll be losing out several Soresu-centric Focus-efficiency talents, thus marginalizing (if not negating) the DPS\aggro advantage from Vigilance.
If you use Courage right, your Sweeps are free, and your Storms cost 1 focus each. Vigilance advantage is illusionary.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

E-Argos's Avatar


E-Argos
12.23.2011 , 08:33 PM | #89
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
Instant Stasis deserves more credit that you give it. An extra stun is divine for pvp. Stun instead of immobilize on Charge is also worth more than it looks, since it can't be resisted with immobilization-protection powers, which are available to quite a few specs.

You don't really gain a whole lot in Vigilance, unless you go all the way to Defender.


With proper prioritizing, I've yet to experience aggro issues. I had Troopers and Consulars spam AoE like mad on packs I was tanking and I lost it only once or twice - when I screwed up with a skill. But there's always the AoE taunt to remedy that.

Sacrificing avoidance and crit defense is *not* the way of the Tank. Also, you'll be tanking in Soresu. And you'll be losing out several Soresu-centric Focus-efficiency talents, thus marginalizing (if not negating) the DPS\aggro advantage from Vigilance.
If you use Courage right, your Sweeps are free, and your Storms cost 1 focus each. Vigilance advantage is illusionary.
So much truth here. As apparent as a lot of the advantages of a hybrid Defense/Vigilance spec are, they pale in comparison to a lot of the higher Defense talents, in both PVP and PVE. I'd take an extra couple of stun utilities and free sweeps over slightly easier threat gain and better DPS as a tank any day.
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FtenEQ's Avatar


FtenEQ
12.23.2011 , 09:36 PM | #90
As a complete Defense specced Guardian up to level 23 so far. I've had zero issues with my Guardian.

I love it, I haven't had this much fun in a long time and I am really enjoying the storyline.

Now I haven't tried a single other class thus far. And maybe that's my saving grace. Maybe I don't know what I'm missing?

I'm planning on keeping him my main, especially since Guardians as have been said previously are due for a balancing pass, at least they were late in beta and we've definitely not seen one.

Though realistically I know how to cycle cooldowns like a boss and have kept my synthweaving up as well.

To each their own I guess.
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