ETA on Advanced Class change?

See MajikMyst, I actually think quite a few of these folks are not only smart, they are much smarter than I am. In fact I'm sure of that.

...I don't believe that is what I said. I think I said your post history proves without a shadow of a doubt your level of credibility here.....that particular post you changed was not edited very well

They can tell by the structure of the post...not to mention knowing what you said originally. They can simply check the folks you responded to...since they saw you edited the post as well.

Like I said, smart folks. I'm not the first person to call you out on your dishonest posts MajikMyst. And I likely will not be the last. You want that to stop?

Stop making dishonest statements.

....like this one.

Oh, I think my post history stands in evidence that this is completely dishonest...but then thats not a new thing for you, is it....

I welcome anyone to compare my post history with yours and let them determine who is "dishonest" and who is not

Shenanigans.

I would rather they had given us less stories but put more actual meaning into the characters choices. I've just finished my Dark Side playthrough of the Sith Warrior story after playing through Light Side first and felt rather nonplussed that the outcome is essentially the same If that's the case where there are actual LS/DS elements that can differ I can't think how the other class stories are going to compare.

Now, I know the nature of an MMO with many players makes phasing for story outcome a bit of an issue. But more extensive use in quest changes similar to those encountered in Black Talon/ Esseles with the LS/DS choices wouldn't have gone amiss. Beyond one LS decision I made while on Korriban I can't really think of any choices I made that actually put me out of my way to complete.

That's a bit of a tangent to this discussion though.

I guess the root of my desire to see AC swapping stems from my origins in tabletop gaming. I cut my teeth on games like Dungeons and Dragons with their class and level based mechanics and swiftly moved over to the likes of GURPS, Call of Cthulhu (Chaosium's Basic Roleplay System), and most recently All Flesh Must Be Eaten, which all share a freer style of character construction and improvement. For me this provides more scope for individual customisation and getting more long term enjoyment out of a character, rather than the more blinkered approach of class based games that can be fine for short term sessions but can become deadend/ boring over the longterm.

Had SWTOR had a less linear story design it may have been possible to have only two classes force sensitive and non-force sensitive and no forced separation into Empire/Republic. Instead the various in game factions such as Empire/ Republic/ Mandalorians/ SIS/ Jedi/ Sith/ etc... could have had their own progressions a character could have advanced through picking up abilities as they mad e their way up in the reputation unlocking new story elements and quests.

But I realise in general game design terms if you are designing content for players you do not know or will not play with it is far easier to stick to a rigid levelling system that makes use of discreet sets of abilities in classes. It is far easier to balance and set the difficulty up for endgame content.

When browsing the forums many of the features I see asked for on a regular basis pertain to this sense of having more choice and being able to direct the character in a different direction to the story BW envisaged. Calls for faction swapping, using different weapons, ability to use opposite faction animations and of course AC swaps all fall into this loose category. I guess some players get attached to their character and want to be able to interact in the game world to a fuller extent. Not to mention the fact that in the lifespan of a character for most players a relatively small time is spent in story, much more is spent in endgame (I spent about 10% of my total game time levelling my character the rest has been spent in endgame doing dailies and flashpoints).

Giving players a few more tools to be able to explore this end game experience with increased flexibility fits more in keeping with the hybrid subscription model that tends to make a more direct comparison between time spent to improve character or money spent to improve character. And it still doesn't go any where near the dreaded pay-2-win line.

Unfortunately I can't see SWTOR having the sort of flexibility to allow faction changes, aside from the incongruity of jumping into a different class story there is the matter of data tracking and companions to consider, so from a technical standpoint this is highly unlikely. Different weapons and animations has been discussed and a recent comment by Damion Schubert points out the issue is more with blaster users and trying to reconcile the various attack animations, not undoable but time consuming.

At the end of the day though I don't think an AC swap option is likely to turn up by itself. If it is being worked on at all it is most probable to be bundled in with a future introduction of additional Advanced Classes. Afterall it places an added market need for the product, similar in many ways to the introduction of the ability to change species when the first new species was released.

Sadly no.. The references and quotes I a referring were made in the beta forum before launch.. That forum has long been destroyed.. In fact the entire website was redone after launch.. So those quotes are not available.. All anyone can find are bits and snatches here and there from Q&A or interviews.. Bioware also said, they didn't want a single character to both tank and heal.. So allowing AC swapping would allow just that.. Again, said during the beta.. But anyone can see with the placements of tanks and healers that that is how it is..

I am sorry about lord.. We had a disagreement a long time ago, I guess he hasn't forgotton or forgiven.. Reminds me of my ex-wife..

You have to understand, I was in the Beta from July 2011 to well.. Launch.. Bioware was very active in the forums.. It wasn't like it is now where you will see a Bioware post once in a blue moon.. For the better part of a month, We discussed 2 things.. Dual spec'ing and AC swapping.. This was August I think.. Originally, there wasn't going to be any kind of dual spec'ing.. Just some obscure dude in some back hall on Coruscant did reset your talent points if you paid him.. Don't know where the imperial guy was.. Then it was decided that dual spec'ing would be allowed.. Once that was decided, AC swapping became the next issue.. The last poll that I saw had 70% of the people not wanting AC swapping and about 20 something wanting and like 10 or something not sure.. The biggest argument however was the selection system sucked.. You had two small buttons barely an inch above the other button.. One button was one AC and the other was the other AC.. So there were a lot of people miss clicking or selecting the wrong AC.. Also you couldn't see the talent trees and there really was no information about the AC's or what roles they played..

Then came a week and a half of down time as they put out the next build..

So here comes the next build.. By the way.. At this point your characters weren't saved so you had to start over each build.. Any way.. The selection process for your AC had changed.. The buttons were spread apart by almost half the screen.. Pretty much the system we have now.. The only difference was no messages of being permanent.. The debate raged on in the forums until Bioware started making some announcements.. The first announcement was they they didn't want a single Character to be able both tank and heal.. Oddly, everyone for the most agreed with that, not really knowing the consequences of that statement.. After a few days though, people started to figure it out and the forums lit up in debates and arguments..

Another week or so for a new build..

New character again.. AC time.. Now the warnings have been added.. Plus a new NPC has been added.. The quest for your AC no longer just took you to your trainer.. There was another dude you had to talk to first.. This dude gave you the first explanation about the AC's and the roles.. Also the first warning that your choice was permanent and could not be undone.. Then you went to the actual specialized trainer, he also gave you a description and warning.. Your choice was permanent and couldn't be undone.. You then had two windows, One for each AC.. You could now see the talent trees for both AC.. Codex entries were added to allow us to read up on both AC.. What weapons they used, what kind of armor, what role they played.. you then had a button on the bottom of each window, Pressing one selected your AC.. You then got your little gift pack as we called it.. Stuff that your new AC uses.. And instuctions to see your trainer..

Sorry this post got so long.. But you have to look at from my perspective.. The bickering over whether or not is a class or not is really irrelevant.. Bioware put a lot of work in to making the process easy and unlikely to mess up.. Also all those warning.. Not to mention an extra stop at an NPC aqain just to make sure we hear the warning..

There is also the issue that AC swapping will pretty much make the idea that one character can't tank and heal, somewhat irrelevant..

Sorry for typos..

See.. This is where you think people are stupid.. There is no post history.. There is no way to look at previous versions of posts and no way to know if it has been edited or when.. So that statement is simply false.. I wouldn't worry about my credibility, I would worry about how your going to conjure up a post history that shows a post has been edited and when.. Also, if you did have a post history.. You would see that it wasn't edited.. I never edited that post.. Not even for typos..

But don't worry.. I know your nonexistent post history says otherwise.. So getting you to believe facts isn't going to happen.. You have a post history and nobody can dispute that??

No need to apologise, I actually appreciate the time you've taken to expand on the prerelease beta period. Unfortunately I didn't have a rig capable of running SWTOR at that time, nor have I ever been lucky enough to get into betas
As to the choice, I wish they had made the AC choice one made at first level. It's a lot clearer and doesn't leave any sense that you've made the wrong choice after you've grown attached to a character.

I also think it's important that a character doesn't have access to Tanking abilities and Healing abilities at the same time. I know I've mentioned this before, and I know other MMOs have allowed a mix of tanking and healing abilities on the same build. However having experienced how much hardier a companion is (Treek) when they have access to both sets at the same time I can't help but feel slightly justified that it would make issues balancing PvP even harder.
The truth is though that while AC swapping would allow a character to potentially be a Tank or a Healer they would not retain the full sets of abilities at the same time. I feel this is an important distinction. The choice is Tank OR Heal, definitely not Tank AND Heal.

No worries, I don't tend to pick folk up for typos or grammar even though I get a slight tic if an apostrophe is used wrongly

I don't think people are stupid. There is a post history for every community member.

Nuff said.

There is an MMO (a failed one due to rushing it to release WAY too soon) called Vanguard in which the paladin class was a tank with access to healing capabilities. I was able to tank small group content while self healing and never would drop below 50% health. In large group content I could self heal everything but the bosses.

Needless to say, no one ever wanted to duel a paladin, which was the only form of PvP at release. I played for one month then stopped at the absurdity and the fact over half of the game world was broken and features not functioning in the game yet that were advertised as being in it.

What was amazing to me was how fast it all came together.. My first time playing this game was a mess.. It was fun, but a mess.. Not all the quests worked.. It crashed a few times.. There was this stuff that looked like water but didn't act like water.. Some of the NPC's didn't know where the ground was.. Ghost images of the taxi speeders were being left everywhere.. The interface was clunky.. The lock button didn't work half the time.. It was funny.. With each build, I would just go and report the same bugs over and over again.. By the time we got to late Nov. everything had shaped up and cleaned up.. They had made a few beauty passes.. Water acted like water.. I still have a picture from the last day of the beta.. We had a dance party on Coruscant in front of the Senate tower.. By the time they closed the beta.. All the beta testers had version 1.0..

Here is my thing.. Over all I am against the idea of AC swapping anytime you want.. I don't think that should be an option.. I do however understand that by the time you get to level 20 or so, you have made some investment into a character.. It was brought up in the beta, but nobody could agree on when or how often.. Some said allow an AC swap at level 20 and then again at level 30.. If you missed the one at level 30 and your character was level 31 you were stuck and permanently that AC.. But if you changed at 20, you could change back at 30.. If you didn't change at 20 then you couldn't change at 30.. Changing at 20 unlocked the option of changing back at 30.. I am actually ok with that..

Now the issue is, making sure people understand what permanent means after 30.. We can see how they understand it now.. That became the underlying issue.. If we tried a compromise, could people agree and not demand more later.. Or is it better to just leave well enough alone and not doing it at all?? It is a tough question and there is no answer..

In WOW there were two classes that could both tank and heal.. The Druid and Paladin.. I played a Paladin.. When it came to raiding and tanking, we (Paladins) were extremely OP because of that very reason.. We could heal ourselves and tank.. Druids couldn't do that because they had forms.. When you were a tank you were in bear form and you couldn't cant your heals.. You had to go to tree form to heal.. Which worked against the druid because tree form didn't have the life bonus and the armor bonus.. So changing to tree to heal yourself could also kill yourself.. Paladins though.. They had 3 heals in their tank spec.. None of them were very big, but all we needed was mana.. And tank spec didn't have many things that used large amounts of mana..

This game??

It is kind of nice not having that cross over from tank to heals on the same character.. I have a Shadow and a Sage.. I prefer tanking more, so my shadow gets more love.. Although, if these up coming changes gimp my Shadow?? I may start loving on my Sage.. But the heals I have currently on my tank aren't the sage heals.. I don't have those heals at all.. I have a gunslinger and I don't have any of the scoundrel heals.. To be honest, I like it separate like that much better..