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Why if the tank can't hold agro, it is their fault ?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles > Tanking
Why if the tank can't hold agro, it is their fault ?

Joshthecook's Avatar


Joshthecook
10.23.2013 , 10:58 PM | #41
Quote:
I have to use a taunt in my opener, or I'll lose agro. I actually have to save one of my taunts when I tank Thrasher in Nightmare Mode, and it is nail bitingly terrifying, because if I get any misses at all, my DPS will pull. The DPS on Thrasher is tight enough that we have to open VERY hard and I can't really pre-pull. It's worth noting that the DPS I run with are good enough that, due to the fact that there are only two guards to go around, I am unable to guard a DPS pulling a 3.1k and another DPS pulling a flat 3k (since the other two are both higher and higher up front burst).

I'm not exactly sure how you could reliably hold agro in the opener without taunt fluffing, given that most good DPS are opening between 4k and 6k DPS.
To be fair, I don't run much Nightmare content due to my work schedule. Hard to find a group on Sunday evenings that wants to run Nightmare on my server. I am sure they are out there, but I am still relatively newish to progression raiding and I am content with the challenge that Hardmode gives me. Just to clarify, taunt fluffing is AOE taunt then single target taunt some time in the first three to six GCDs?

Quote:
@ Josh....please don't take that wrong... I wasn't really aiming for your head there
I did catch where you said that you do on one tank but not so much on the other. It was meant as more of a blanket statement, because I have come across a lot of people who are totally of the mind set that taunts are supposed to be used only as the start button or if a DPS pulls. And some of them have been so adamant that they will defend this theory with the lovely statement of "If you have to taunt in your rotation then L2P, noob!"
Oh but you did such a fantastic job of it! If there is one thing I hate and tell to people who I am giving my Tanking 101 to, you never start a fight with a taunt. I had for a very long time only used my taunts as a last resort, but I grew as a player and tank both in game experience and from you fine people it became a situationial part of an opener. i.e. Titan 6.

ASTEEZA's Avatar


ASTEEZA
10.24.2013 , 07:52 AM | #42
Can someone tell me the best rotation I can use as a jedi defense skill when I play in heroics and other mission to be able to hold agro plse im lvl 30?
''The secret of all powers is save youre force,If you want high pressure you must choke off waste''

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.24.2013 , 10:22 AM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Joshthecook View Post
To be fair, I don't run much Nightmare content due to my work schedule. Hard to find a group on Sunday evenings that wants to run Nightmare on my server. I am sure they are out there, but I am still relatively newish to progression raiding and I am content with the challenge that Hardmode gives me. Just to clarify, taunt fluffing is AOE taunt then single target taunt some time in the first three to six GCDs?
Sort of. Usually you single-target taunt first to get it off CD as soon as possible. The maximum threat opener for a shadow tank is as follows:

Pull > Sprint + Project > Slow Time > Force Breach + Single Taunt > Double Strike > Project > Force Potency + Telekinetic Throw > AoE Taunt +

That is taunt fluffing. You can do that on most bosses, but unfortunately some do have mechanical restrictions which prevent this (see Thrasher). In those cases, you can sometimes swap off between tanks to increase threat, and you should do that if the opener is causing you issues.
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tourck's Avatar


tourck
11.07.2013 , 09:33 PM | #44
I think too that you have to know what your dps can handle. we all play every class in the game and know the ins and outs of them right? the only person ill pull agro back from is heals. i mean, once and a while ill pull it off a dps if they are going to be killed and its going to make a difference to the op, but they can usually take it.

Afieri's Avatar


Afieri
11.09.2013 , 12:56 AM | #45
I just want to step in here with a slightly different single target opener for guardian.

Firstly, please don't use saber throw. It just doesn't generate enough threat to make the extra 3 focus (which is slightly unneeded if you are maintanking) worth it.

1. Combat Focus
2. Leap + Reflect
3. Guardian Strike + Riposte
4. Hilt Strike
5. Sweep
6. Blade Storm
7. Master Strike (The taunt is to ensure you don't lose aggro during MS which is just a pain)

Then just proceed with normal priorities (Just a side note, your dps do have aggro drops and should be using them when they see the taunt as avisual cue, except for sentinels and guardians due to the inherent usefulness of their threat drops)

The idea behind this is that your dps don't do amazing dps while they are dead, and also if they have to move during their opener or interrupt a cast in order to threat drop it's just detrimental.

So this opener brings the balance between allowing your dps to maximise their dps and you holding threat.

Discussing a few items, the first one being, Why is Sweep so far down the list?

Sweep is so far down the list because I have ordered the opener in terms of Highest Threat per GCD to Lowest Threat Per GCD, and Sweep just doesn't generate as much threat as Hilt Strike, so why put it before Hilt Strike? Because of the Accuracy Debuff + Armor Debuff I hear you say. Well the Accuracy Debuff is applied 1 GCD later, so unless if you get railed by an unmitigated M/R attack that would have missed if you had that extra 5% effective defense and your healers are unable to compensate for that hit in the first 4 GCD's of a fight, then by all means throw that sweep up 2 GCD's earlier, but outside of that extremely unlikely scenario, place it in it's proper place, which is below the higher threat generation moves. The second part of Sweep gives the boss an Armor Debuff which helps your personal dps and the dps in your group hit harder, and this is where this opener creates the compromise that allows you to hold threat. The Armor Debuff helps out the dps in your raid team a whole lot more than it does you, this basically means that you have a harder time holding that threat because the dps are already hitting much harder than you, on the flipside, the dps are usually number hungry wolves who are insistent that the boss should be their new friend and not yours, and will be disappointed at not seeing such high numbers between GCD's 2 - 4, but they can suck it up, because they get to live. Again this is pretty much personal preference, because the difference between a non crit Hilt Strike and a non crit Force Sweep is about ~400 threat, but it's still more threat, and it is effectively ~520 threat to the dps that are trying their damnedest to pull off you. Once crits come into play, it only widens the gap.

Why don't you put Sweep before Guardian Slash?

Guardian Slash gets turned into an approximate conal attack when used on a target effected by an Armor Debuff, which is all brilliant, except when you are pulling a boss that doesn't have adds up straight away that are within the reach of the conal, it only buffs the damage by Guardian Slash by a little bit from the Armor Debuff and as I said before, buffs the dps in your raid's damage much more. Guardian Slash is the highest threat move you have available to use because it has a 2.6x threat multiplier coupled with it's fairly high base damage and allows the use of Riposte which hits fairly hard as well as being off the GCD. More importantly, using Force Sweep before Guardian Slash delays your snap threat which can be vitally important if you have an aggro hungry gunnery commando in your raid who gave up long ago on starting with TO +GR > Relic + Adrenal + DR > HiB because it was just a recipe for disaster if he got some crits or if I had a miss/resist on any of my attacks.

As a side note, this opener slightly reduces mitigation for the first 7.5 seconds, but at that point in time it shouldn't be that much of an issue provided your healers are well, healing.

TL;DR, If there is one thing you should take away from this, don't use Saber Throw if you are MTing, you will get enough focus from Combat Focus and Leap to go through the first couple of GCD's without issue, Saber Throw is a wasted GCD due to it's pitiful threat generation and is just a recipe for you to lose aggro.

------------------ EDIT --------------------------

This is intended to be your opener if the dps in your group are pre-casting and are leaping/attacking as you leap. If they aren't, they should be.
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rreddy's Avatar


rreddy
11.09.2013 , 01:16 AM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by Afieri View Post
I just want to step in here with a slightly different single target opener for guardian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaG5SAw1n0c

/revenge

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Marb's Avatar


Marb
11.09.2013 , 10:28 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Afieri View Post
1. Combat Focus
2. Leap + Reflect
3. Guardian Strike + Riposte
4. Hilt Strike
5. Sweep
6. Blade Storm
7. Master Strike (The taunt is to ensure you don't lose aggro during MS which is just a pain)
Guardian openers are the way they are in order to sync ability use to their 12 second cycle, (long term efficiency in mind), but the focus loss from skipping saber throw is something you would easily recover from.

One suggestion I have is moving blade storm to after master strike. That would give you an extra riposte on the tail end of the sweep gcd just before Master Strike assuming there is focus left:

1. Combat Focus
2. Leap + Reflect
3. Guardian Strike + Riposte
4. Hilt Strike
5. Sweep
6. Riposte + Master Strike
7. Blade Storm
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Afieri's Avatar


Afieri
11.10.2013 , 12:03 AM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Marb View Post
Guardian openers are the way they are in order to sync ability use to their 12 second cycle, (long term efficiency in mind), but the focus loss from skipping saber throw is something you would easily recover from.

One suggestion I have is moving blade storm to after master strike. That would give you an extra riposte on the tail end of the sweep gcd just before Master Strike assuming there is focus left:

1. Combat Focus
2. Leap + Reflect
3. Guardian Strike + Riposte
4. Hilt Strike
5. Sweep
6. Riposte + Master Strike
7. Blade Storm
Thanks for that Strudel forgot about the fact that riposte will be up again within the opener, I only put blade storm before master strike because of the absorb shield and the fact that it is more front loaded damage than master strike.

The reason why I like this opener is because it has a higher snap threat, and with regards to long term efficiency, the first priority is establishing a threat pool by which it can never be topped by a dps outside of mechanics, and then creating a sustainable rotation outside of that. Taking 6-9 seconds of just striking and slashing after 30 seconds into a boss fight in order to get your 12 second synchronisation back seems fairly doable and shouldn't affect your mitigation too much. Another thing to point out is that as soon as you have downtime on a target with nothing to hit, you get a brief reprieve to sort out your ability usage and get back to that optimal routine .

Just my thoughts anyway :3
Warstalker Elai'a

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killerdcs's Avatar


killerdcs
11.16.2013 , 01:37 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Pull > Sprint + Project > Slow Time > Force Breach + Single Taunt > Double Strike > Project > Force Potency + Telekinetic Throw > AoE Taunt +
Force potency gives no DMG buf to TT it just gives it a 30 m range. Force potency goes before Project for the 60% crit or before a accelerated project, that gives it a 50% DMG on top of the guaranteed crit.

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
11.16.2013 , 01:38 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by killerdcs View Post
Force potency gives no DMG buf to TT it just gives it a 30 m range. Force potency goes before Project for the 60% crit or before a accelerated project, that gives it a 50% DMG on top of the guaranteed crit.
It does give a damage buff to TkT /Force Lightning. It gives a 60% increase in crit for every tick of force lightning (which is by far your hardest hitting ability)
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