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Any way to get Story Mode Dread Council tamed just a little?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
Any way to get Story Mode Dread Council tamed just a little?

Gwence's Avatar


Gwence
11.11.2013 , 11:46 AM | #11
council actually isnt that bad on sm

If you pug is trying to lock all masters at 55% in phase 1 on sm that is probably why you are struggling, If you weren't aware you get a 300 second channel once the first master gets pushed to 50%, this is more than enough time to allow the raid to ignore the locking all the masters at 55% thing and just push bestia to 50% right from the start, then tyrans, raptus, and finally calphyrus in that order.

and the same thing in the last phase, as soon as 1 of them is 20% I believe they all go into the middle and its just a burn phase and on SM it's really easy.

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
11.11.2013 , 12:45 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Lord_Noch View Post
What the title says.

The intention of Story Mode is to teach players the mechanics in a fight that, as long as players were competent, could complete without the need of voice communication. Or so I thought.

That was until I saw this catastrophe of a "story mode" boss fight. While I do enjoy a good challenge, I believe that this, for story mode, is overtuned. Hard Mode Golden Fury (Toborro's Courtyard) looks like a cake walk in comparison to this. This "story mode" boss fight is loaded with hard mode and nightmare mode mechanics that have no place in a story mode op.

This fight needs a nerf, I'd say AT LEAST a 25% - 30% nerf, maybe as much as a 40%. As it is, very few groups are even willing to attempt it, and those that do often throw in the towel. I've always been the last (or one of the last) to quit because I'd like to complete it, hell, I have millions of credits to blow in repairs if need be. The rest of the op is awesome, don't change it. Bestia and Calphayus are pretty much perfect difficulty. Raptus and Tyrans may be slightly too easy considering Bestia is more difficult than they are. The only problem is Dread Council.

All other quests were do-able for casual players in 69 gear without voice communication. Terror from Beyond. Scum and Villainy. Dread Fortress. Why is this one so over the top?

Please solicit ideas from the community to make Dread Council a bit more appropriate for story mode.

Thanks!

The comparison to HM TC is very much apples to oranges. From a mechanics standpoint, about the only thing simpler than HM TC is SM TC, though I suppose an argument could be made that Nefra is simpler mechanics wise. All the difficulty in HM TC is the fact that it's a non-trivial DPS check when appropriately geared. These kind of fights are usually incredibly easy on story mode. The difficulty from Dread Masters is all in the mechanics, and while it definitely doesn't require voice communication it does require more personal responsibility than your average PUG, especially these days when PUGs regularly knock down 16 man SM TFB and SnV almost completely ignoring mechanics, which is why comparing DF/DP SM to TFB/SNV SM is also comparing apples to oranges since there are a lot of top raiders looking to knock out weeklies that make the older story modes more or less trivial.

On the one hand I see your point. SM is SM, and the possibility for a tank to get yanked by Tyrans right before getting knocked off by Bestia and killed is something that I can see being a very real problem for a PUG, and that's not the only thing. Personal responsibility is even more important when you don't have voice communication, and in a fight where you already need a good chunk of that compared to other SM content, it can be rough.

On the other hand, if you're doing SM first, I like this fight quite a lot because it's a fight where you can actually get a good chance to practice HM mechanics in a lower setting, which often doesn't happen in SMs. Moreover, I'm not exactly sure what you'd like removed. The mechanics ARE the fight. That's the thing about fights which are primarily mechanics checks over DPS checks. DPS checks you can sort of trivialize by adjusting health levels. They've already ensured that you don't have to knock them to 50% at the same rate by giving you so very long of a window between the first master getting to 50% before the last one needs to be at 50%. That right there is a huge coordination check that's gone in SM. You can then focus on getting the most dangerous masters down first. I mean really what exactly do you want?

Honestly, I'd like them to keep it as is in the distant hope that we might get a better quality of PUG which will just make the game better for everyone.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

Bowenator's Avatar


Bowenator
11.11.2013 , 12:50 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Aiobhill View Post
This may come as a considerable shock to you, Bro-dude, but the lowest available difficulty in a video game should be tuned for people not trying to make their living solicticing their "video stream", but those making their living outside the wonderful world of slaying pixel dragons.
I see you must also be having trouble completing SM. Thanks for being a fan and let me know if you'd like to compare tax returns instead of epeens!
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TrillOG-'s Avatar


TrillOG-
11.11.2013 , 12:54 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer View Post
No, it isn't.

Only if you are a "Pro" and are overgeared, too.

It is easy only if you have 69+ gear.
Beneath that, it's horrible, imho. I had quite a lot of problems there, and I had only 2-3 pieces of 69 gear, everything else was around 60+ (roughly from my memory).
The op is made for 69+ gear, you are undergeared and obviously not ready gearwise or skillwise for the op and complain about how it is only easy if you're a "pro and overgeared". 66/69s are what it is for and there are 5 other ops you can run to prepare you for these 2. There is NO reason it should be made easier because people like to skip half the content and expect to faceroll everything in 50 gear. If you are having trouble, it is YOUR FAULT.
Oh and by the way, they are aren't tuned for people who revolve their life around this game, they are tuned for people who have the ability to use their brain, I know I know, why tune it for such a low population? But.. too bad.

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
11.11.2013 , 01:37 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by TrillOG- View Post
The op is made for 69+ gear, you are undergeared and obviously not ready gearwise or skillwise for the op and complain about how it is only easy if you're a "pro and overgeared". 66/69s are what it is for and there are 5 other ops you can run to prepare you for these 2. There is NO reason it should be made easier because people like to skip half the content and expect to faceroll everything in 50 gear. If you are having trouble, it is YOUR FAULT.
Oh and by the way, they are aren't tuned for people who revolve their life around this game, they are tuned for people who have the ability to use their brain, I know I know, why tune it for such a low population? But.. too bad.
Given that SM drops Arkanian, it is not beyond the realm of sanity to think that people can and should be able to do this in full purple 66s, You essentially get a full set of purple 66s (and basic coms for the rest) while doing the Oricon story line. People who steam roll the two ops in full 72s+ really shouldn't make assumptions like that.

Also, there are realistically only two other ops from which you can get Arkanian+ gear, and in the kind of free for all loot rules that pervade in pugs, it's not at all guaranteed that even doing both of them before would net you even a single piece of gear. The loot gods are not always kind.

So yes actually, a group in a mix of 66s/69s should absolutely be able to do it. If they can't then it isn't tuned properly. We saw this in the opening weeks when 8 man SM Draxus had the guardians of the fortress putting out their DoT which was doing the same damage as the same thing in 16 man HM. Good guilds who had Hard Mode or Nightmare SnV/TFB on farm with the gear that comes with that didn't have a problem. Groups that tried to do it in appropriate level gear found a real problem. That was a bug, so I'm a tad guilty of my own apples to oranges comparison, but the primary point is that you shouldn't underestimate that the gear and experience from running regularly with a guild raid group leaves you lacking a huge amount of perspective when it comes to the concerns of players who don't have those advantages.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

Lumpyone's Avatar


Lumpyone
11.11.2013 , 01:46 PM | #16
I'm in partial agreement with the OP about both these OPs, not just this boss fight. The real issue I've seen with both OPS has been trying to PUG the runs. If you are in a regular group who are used to each other and know how to work well together, these are cake. You also are more likely in a group or guild who is doing Progression raiding too, so these are facerolls for such groups.

These OPs definitely do prepare a group for the HM version, however, they are not really PUG friendly when you have so many people tackling TFB and SnV just for the weeklies then go and expect the DF and DP weeklies to be similiar.

I've got several guildmates who see the DF and DP that way, as they should be easy like TFB and SnV so they can get their weekly comms and be done. That's the way they like to play and they are not interested in HM OPs or Progression Raiding. The issue then becomes, these same kind of people are joining PUGs and there are problems. When they can't get past a boss, people whine, moan, complain and then stop trying to do it. I think this is what the OP is having a problem with, which he is suggesting the boss fight mechanic be adjusted.

This is good and bad. You can see it as Good because that is fewer people not geared or not capable of finishing the OP joining a PUG (which could make it easier if you have people geared and capable of doing it, so its easier for all in the PUG) and Bad because the fewer the people able to PUG these the harder it becomes to find groups. Especially when 16M is easier than 8M on SM. That's just bad game design, or a poor choice by developers thinking there will be more 16M groups because there are so many 16M TFB and SnV groups for weeklies.

TDLR: In PUGs, these fights require everyone know the fight mechanics well, know what their roll is and what they must do and when. Sadly, too many out there are used to not having to know them perfectly and still getting past fights. It's the player's responsibility to be prepared and able to do these OPs before doing them.

Gardimuer's Avatar


Gardimuer
11.11.2013 , 03:07 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Lumpyone View Post
TDLR: In PUGs, these fights require everyone know the fight mechanics well, know what their roll is and what they must do and when. Sadly, too many out there are used to not having to know them perfectly and still getting past fights. It's the player's responsibility to be prepared and able to do these OPs before doing them.
I agree with this 100%. There's no reason for the SM mechanics to be adjusted if the problem lies in the group's knowledge, coordination, and execution. If the fights were not appropriately balanced for the intended gear level, then I could see an argument for nerfing them, but that's just not the case here.

Siorac's Avatar


Siorac
11.11.2013 , 03:14 PM | #18
I think Brontes SM is actually harder. I don't see anything wrong with the Dread Masters fight and I'm certainly no pro.

The mechanics aren't complicated or difficult to execute: don't attack Calphayus from outside his shield, stay out of red circles, move out of purple cones, healers cleanse Death Mark. Agree a kill order and off you go.

Lumpyone's Avatar


Lumpyone
11.11.2013 , 03:17 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Gardimuer View Post
I agree with this 100%. There's no reason for the SM mechanics to be adjusted if the problem lies in the group's knowledge, coordination, and execution. If the fights were not appropriately balanced for the intended gear level, then I could see and argument for nerfing them, but that's just not the case here.
Yet, therein lies part of the problem. The SM version of any OP really should be about getting in there and learning the fights. I think these 2 Ops do that, but I still see a problem in that people walk in expecting to walk through it like they do all the other SM Ops in the game. Instead, you really need to learn some serious HM level mechanics for a SM.

The other part of the problem I think is the difficulty of the SM for say an 8M vs a 16M is ridiculious. I've began forming 16M runs, usually having to pug 8 spots (8 of us are in guild) just so we can complete the Ops. Certain fights just don't seem 8M friendly.

Bowenator's Avatar


Bowenator
11.11.2013 , 04:05 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Lumpyone View Post
The other part of the problem I think is the difficulty of the SM for say an 8M vs a 16M is ridiculious. I've began forming 16M runs, usually having to pug 8 spots (8 of us are in guild) just so we can complete the Ops. Certain fights just don't seem 8M friendly.
I think a lot of people prefer running 16 man because, frankly, it is easy to get carried and you only need a couple of decent players at each role. It is very fault tolerant.

That said, with SM DP I think 8 man has an advantage on the Council fight. On 16 man there are four death marks that go out (just like 8m HM). Two good healers can still easily cleanse all of them, but only a single death mark goes out in 8 man SM. You also have less dps to worry about pulling Bestia off the tank and getting punted, etc.

For SM Dread Council 8man, you need at least one tank who understands the knockback, one dps to kite Raptus, and one healer who knows to cleanse the death mark. I don't think that is lot to ask for in a group of 8 in new SM content. The difficulty will be reduced eventually, make no mistake. But for now it is still very doable, but still provides some sense of progression for those who do have their sights on HM.
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