The (Un)Official PVP venting thread.

Lets see in WZ's what annoys me.The guy who attacks the solo guard I just flashbanged after he used his stun break while were capping. This annoys me and it seems to happen constantly. The thing that confuses me? Why do snipers need a gun 1.5 to 2 times as long as the carbine or rifle in order to shoot 18 feet (5m) farther? The only short sniping rifle is the X-55 (other than the bowcaster) and those tend to be non existent on the GTN.

Wow, Lord 137, that's impressive! Can you also share with us the length of your toon's big, swinging junk?

By the way, the only person in this thread yammering about 'entry-level PvP' (whatever that means) is you. The rest of us have been discussing Lvl55 PvP--hence my multiple comparisons to endgame flashpoint/ops content.

EDIT: added the words 'big' and 'swinging' for clarity.

I'm guessing I'm following a very similar path to what you did, but I wonder how much of the problem with some noobs never getting better isn't quite so much a refusal to learn but a knee-jerk reaction to all the abuse that comes their way. It's not something that happens every time, but I see an awful lot of the "L2P YOU IDIOTS!" type of comments in PvP and I have to imagine a lot of it can be very discouraging. Since you shared yours, here's the short version of my story - I've been playing MMOs for longer than I can remember, but until playing SWTOR I very rarely grouped and almost never engaged in PvP. Sounds really stupid, I know, but I have historically had a very low tolerance for rude players and haven't always had a lot of patience for spending an hour to get a group together, getting 15 minutes into a raid, then having to wait another half hour while the raid's healer/tank/leader/whatever goes and has dinner with mom and dad. In other words, my social experiences in MMOs were pretty negative to begin with and the few times I tried to group up with people, it just reinforced that negative viewpoint.

Then SWTOR comes out and I kinda/sorta think I'm going to PvP, but never really get into it. Left for a year and a half, then came back a couple months ago determined to get into PvP. After getting past the first few games of standing around like an idiot, doing my best to lose the match for my groups, and getting a fair chunk of abuse, I started to actually learn and I've had a heck of lot of fun ever since. Of course, I also scour the forums incessantly, read up on my class on a bunch of different websites, and spent at least two weeks tweaking my keybinding, but at least there's been some progress.

But I still see rampant abuse in WZ chat. There's still the rage venting and accusations, typically from people who aren't doing overly well themselves, and I have to think that a lot of those other noobs don't have as thick a skin as I do. And of course, human nature is to fight back when someone yells at you. How many people actually have the emotional capacity to suppress their ego and consider that maybe the guy yelling at them to guard a node might be right? How many simply react to the anger with a defensive view of "screw you, I can play however I want," and decide to just do whatever they want?

I guess my point is that I don't see the point to getting angry at noobs, regardless of how bad the WZ goes. The ones who are willing to listen and become better are much more likely to listen if you say it nicely. The ones who aren't willing to listen aren't going to listen regardless of how many capital letters or exclamation points are used.

Well said

While I agree with you, there are a**hats on pretty much every MMO I've investigated, including Lord 137's exemplar of the Social Factor(tm)--WoW. I've seen some pretty ugly a**hattery in SWTOR PvE as well. You can treat the symptoms with better self-policing tools and a user base willing to use them, but the issue is endemic to anonymous, digitally mediated engagement.

Again (and I feel like a broken record on this), SWTOR players I know are consistently compliant on meeting the entry level expectations for endgame PvE content (e.g., meet the gear minimum, do your homework on the flashpoint, announce yourself as a newcomer, ask for advice). There are only two logical motivations for this behavior: (1) they respect the players with whom they're grouped, and want to contribute to the group's success; or (2) they are fearful of being soundly mocked and voted out of the group. The question no-one here has provided a satisfactory answer to is: "why shouldn't PvP players be afforded the same courtesy?" All that has been offered instead are transparently obvious attempts to marginalize PvPers as "taking the game way too seriously", or comparing us to the Marilyn Manson fanbase (odd, I know).

Respect does, and always has, run both ways.

My toon is female and swings nothing.

Indeed, in comparison to endgame flashpoints/ops content .. there is gear requirement, or recommendation. There is none in for Ranked nor WZ. The difficulty of PvE content is scaled from SM to NiM. Again, no such distinction for PvP. What happens is that a player clicks a button and is taken either to SM or NiM, like a lottery. Oh you are not ready for NiM? Dont have the skills nor gear nor tactic no healer no tank? Never mind, this is SPARTA!!!

Random is random, for everyone.

I suppose I could vent about that last match I was in, but you see people with 26000 HP on your team, walk up to the node you control and appear to be trying to activate the control to try to cap it, and wander around aimlessly like they are exploring or something, and you just know that there is nothing you can do.

Aside from that lost soul in that civil war, I hear 4 allies unbeatable while we have only held the one node I defend. Of course they have not died as they are wandering around the middle area, up and down the cliffs while stealthed, where no one would go. When you see that, it's just time to log out.

EDIT to continue venting: I mean seriously. Spent the entire time going "*** are they doing?" Finally left the node when another wandered by because we weren't getting anywhere anyway, but you might have had 2 or 3 other guys that might know what they were doing, and it just isn't going to get you anywhere against a team of 8 who had at least 2 healers and 4 tanks. I don't even know how you get into a collection of so many players that I can only assume were checking out warzones for the first time in a level 55 match. I'm just at a loss for words. (or apparently not, but I am baffled.)

Must...resist...urge.
I see. We've gone from "marginalization via comparison to alternative rocker" to "marginalization via comparison to militaristic Greek city-state". While I thought the Marilyn Manson dig was interesting, this one is definitely more apt. Dedicated PvPers in SWTOR are definitely in the minority compared to "hobbyist" PvPers, whom I assume you view as the Persians. I'm sure your reimagination of the Battle of Thermopylae features hordes of your happy Social Factor(tm) worshipers trampling the last of us dedicated PvPers into dust while they chat about the fabulous Cartel Market gear they just snagged (on discount, no less!).

One thing is for certain, the Spartans were afforded some respect.

I'd be willing to bet you and I both know exactly why it doesn't happen, but insofar as why it shouldn't happen, I can't answer that because I completely agree that it should happen. It's simply due to time constraints. I've said this on another thread, but if every PvP event lasted as long a a typical high end raid, if players were able to investigate other players when they arrived and could pause the event and vote to kick, there would be no casual PvP players in PvP matches; everyone would be properly geared and would know what to do (or willing to learn, at least).

Throw a bunch of random people into a match and given them a minute and a half to prep, followed by a 5-15 minute window to play, and there is no way we can avoid the random PUGs who sometimes don't care to do much beyond just try to farm medals. Either PUG yourself and risk being the butt provider in the butt kicking contest or get into a good pre-made and provide the foot. Once in a while you actually have a good game.

But I still think it doesn't make any sense to blame the PUGs for that. It isn't our fault for that.

Thank you for your much calmer response - makes me easier to think this rationally. I've given a lot of thought about this conversation, and I think the disagreements in this matter come down to two things.

First, there's this "you're taking this too seriously"-matter. It seems clear that you (and many other people who have participated in this conversation) are very, very competitive. It's important to you to have new, great challenges with equal opponents. You want to win, always, or at least have a tight match, and if someone screws up something, you may be very angry. Because you enjoy it when both sides are very good at what they do, not when both sides screw up something. Am I right?

It's hard to me to imagine being like you, and I guess it's hard for you to imagine being like me. Let me lighten my perspective here a little.
I go to the warzone to have fun. Not to compete, not to win, to have fun. Actually, taking the warzones as seriously as you take them would make me feel so stressed that I couldn't sleep the next night at all. And I can have fun, no matter what gear or skills I, my teammates or the enemy has. If someone screws up, I may inform them what they did wrong, but then I just think "there will be other warzones" and move on. If I'm in a absolutely terrible team that gets three-capped, I either take it as a challenge (and try to figure out a tactic to turn this into a win, or at least a little less embarassing loss) or just accept the fact that we aren't going to win this warzone and enjoy playing even if our attemps to cap would be in vain. I don't even blame my gear if I suck, I just think that the player that just killed me just was better. I don't blame my team, I don't blame my teams gear, I don't blame my team's skill level. I'm not perfect, I don't assume they are either. I blame the enemy. They were better.

Now, the other problem is the term "undergeared". It's fine in pve, there is more or less clear limit what is undergeared in content x. But in pvp, this isn't as simple as you think. In pve, there is a certain level of gear that is recommended to the content. People under that level are undergeared and (this is important) people over that level are overgeared. In order not to be carried, you have to be properly geared. The overgeared people have no affect on if you have to be carried or not (even though they can carry undergeared people).
In pvp, the thing is different, because you CANNOT be overgeared. Ever. So, "properly geared" is different in every match. Properly geared in pvp could be defined as "same gear or almost same gear as the best geared player has". It's a little similiar to when in work or classroom, you may have a colleague or a classmate who's a true overachiever. Then your boss or teacher starts wondering why you aren't as good as him, even though your results would be just fine if that overachiever wasn't standing next to you.

So, in your point of view, it's like those people would be trying to go to a hard mode operation undergeared and expect to be carried. From their point of view, you just joined story mode czerka corporate labs overgeared and then got mad because not everyone was as overgeared as you are. Because in pve, you queue/join a certain fp/op and you can decide before, if you are geared enough or not.
In pvp, you only have 1 button, queue. Unlike in pve, you can't choose to queue to warzones where there are no players who have better gear than x. It's like everything in pve - from story mode czerka fps to hard mode ops - would be in the same queue, and you could only choose to queue to all of them or not to queue at all. And it's completely random if it's sm crezka fp with people in full Kell Dragon or hm Dread Palace with people in their leveling blues.

So, they are probably ruining your fun. Or you are ruining their fun. Depends on who you ask.

But, tbh, I have no idea how to solve this confliction between these two groups. Whenever they meet, someone is going to get hurt - either that competitive player is frustrated and feels bad, or that casual player is going to get bashed for not taking pvp seriously enough. It would probably be best if both of these groups had their own bracket, but, unfortunately, they are forced to queue with each other. And everyone is unhappy.

^^^ Thank you for a serious response, instead of some blather about the popularity of WoW, Marilyn Manson, ancient Greece and the Social Factor(tm).

I have said previously that PvP could be improved, specifically with cross-server queues and an incentive model that does a better job incentivizing success and discouraging "just showing up". I also think making the WZ start conditional on a Ready Check (with a longer time limit) would improve coordination and limit the number of WZs starting 3v4 or 7v8. I wouldn't mind if the WZs were available in "training mode" though I doubt anyone would use them--have you ever seen anyone <actually fighting> in the Outlaw's Den?

While I agree with you on points, I think the underlying issue is what I've explained previously. The significant majority of swtor players see PvE as their "career" and PvP as a "hobby" to alleviate career boredom. They don't want to be bothered with technique or gear or coordination. They just want to smash stuff and have fun, and BW doesn't do anything to disavow them of this view. When a hobbyist gets blown up by a PvP "careerist", they choose to gripe about premades and cost of augments instead of acknowledging that they've wandered into a type of gameplay where success requires a little more effort than running a flashpoint with a browser window open to the boss guide.