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More to do with Revan and Revanites please!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
More to do with Revan and Revanites please!

Hell_Kaiser_Fett's Avatar


Hell_Kaiser_Fett
11.08.2013 , 11:26 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Stinghen View Post
But more Revan content? Hell no. It is an unfortunate decision Bioware decided to provide that sort of fan service (though it is interesting for the single reason because it debunks the "gray Jedi Revan" theory quite efficiently), and the presence of Revan in TOR prompted Karpyshyn to write that novel (which killed the character to many people who actually liked the KotOR 2 depiction of Revan through Traya's words) in order to link KotOR 2 to TOR.

But before I saw any more Revan content, or even Revanite content... BW already left so many unexplored plot hooks that would play off into new and awesome, galaxy-shaking events. Take one of the statements made by Gnost-Dural during the timeline videos - where he theorises Vitiate's Empire is really at odds with ancient Sith spirits as Marka Ragnos (which could be taken as a truer, purer form of Sith tradition than Vitiate's own, which changed consistently to incorporate a cult to Vitiate's own personality above all else). Another plot line that was left too loose was Darth Nox's own cult - more quests in that regard (class-sidequests, why not?) would be a welcome addition. I only played the Sorceror through to the end, so I don't know about other classes, but I am sure there are some loose ends I would much rather see Bioware approach than just feeding the fanboys with more Revan-related content.



That's a sad statement. I leave the judgement as to whether it is true or not to others, but, Hell! Revan was their Revan, now he's a plot element, a bloody NPC. Their character, look at that, is their actual MMO toon. Do they not shape them as they like too? I know I do. But people hoped they could recreate and play as Revan again? Sad, just sad. Puerile.
I actually agree with a lot of this. First, I really liked Revan, when he was how we interpreted him, and how he was a "legend of his time". That said, I hate that he is in TOR. It really did kill Revan for me and a lot of others, spawning the Revan haters we have today. While I am glad we have a book explaining what happened to him after KotOR I'm not exactly in agreement with how he was portrayed. Personally, I think the book should have been about his fall, and somehow explain differently how he prevented the Emperor from attacking for 300 years.

As far as the Cults go, YES to more Darth Nox cult missions.

The thing about Vitiate and Marka Ragnos, I think it would be cool if instead of the Jedi killing Vitiate, the Sith did it themselves, either Darth Nox, Darth Marr, or even the spirit of Marka Ragnos or Tulak Hord would make for an interesting ending, going along with the lore that Sith destroy each other. Ironically, Nox is now more immortal than Vitiate, so how the hell does that work? And how does/will Nox ever die?
"You are now an official member of the Fett Lineage." - Temuera Morrison at ConNooga March 2, 2013

Stinghen's Avatar


Stinghen
11.08.2013 , 12:00 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Hell_Kaiser_Fett View Post
I actually agree with a lot of this. First, I really liked Revan, when he was how we interpreted him, and how he was a "legend of his time". That said, I hate that he is in TOR. It really did kill Revan for me and a lot of others, spawning the Revan haters we have today. While I am glad we have a book explaining what happened to him after KotOR I'm not exactly in agreement with how he was portrayed. Personally, I think the book should have been about his fall, and somehow explain differently how he prevented the Emperor from attacking for 300 years.

As far as the Cults go, YES to more Darth Nox cult missions.

The thing about Vitiate and Marka Ragnos, I think it would be cool if instead of the Jedi killing Vitiate, the Sith did it themselves, either Darth Nox, Darth Marr, or even the spirit of Marka Ragnos or Tulak Hord would make for an interesting ending, going along with the lore that Sith destroy each other. Ironically, Nox is now more immortal than Vitiate, so how the hell does that work? And how does/will Nox ever die?
Quite honestly, whatever explanation for Vitiate not attacking they could give (both the one that was effectively given, and the ones they could/should have given) would not be believable, because the KotOR plot has so many loopholes. Regardless of Revan, Vitiate should have attacked during the events of KotOR 2, when the Republic was in disarray and there was no Jedi Order to protect it. The reason he did not is a mystery, a stretch and a majour loophole. So that situation really could not be salvaged in a believable manner.

But on the case of Sith destroying Sith, I would oppose that spelling doom for Vitiate and his empire, seeing as that is what ends the New Sith, and that pertains to the prophecy of the Sith'ari, the Dark Lord that would rise, destroy and recreate the Sith in his own fashion. Darth Bane fills that role, so he's got the dibs on that approach. I would much rather see the relationship with Vitiate's Empire and the true Old Sith Empire developped, crippling the Sith Empire, but its final end should come at the hands of the Jedi. It would be a nice closing, too, since all the other wars in the Old Sith Wars were ended by the deeds of the Jedi.

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Hell_Kaiser_Fett
11.08.2013 , 12:14 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Stinghen View Post
Quite honestly, whatever explanation for Vitiate not attacking they could give (both the one that was effectively given, and the ones they could/should have given) would not be believable, because the KotOR plot has so many loopholes. Regardless of Revan, Vitiate should have attacked during the events of KotOR 2, when the Republic was in disarray and there was no Jedi Order to protect it. The reason he did not is a mystery, a stretch and a majour loophole. So that situation really could not be salvaged in a believable manner.

But on the case of Sith destroying Sith, I would oppose that spelling doom for Vitiate and his empire, seeing as that is what ends the New Sith, and that pertains to the prophecy of the Sith'ari, the Dark Lord that would rise, destroy and recreate the Sith in his own fashion. Darth Bane fills that role, so he's got the dibs on that approach. I would much rather see the relationship with Vitiate's Empire and the true Old Sith Empire developped, crippling the Sith Empire, but its final end should come at the hands of the Jedi. It would be a nice closing, too, since all the other wars in the Old Sith Wars were ended by the deeds of the Jedi.
That's why it should be destroyed by the Sith, or at least caused by something a Sith/multiple Sith did. The problem is they made too many of their characters too op. Vitiate, immortal. Nox, immortal. Revan, never dying. Scourge, immortal. That in itself causes inconsistencies.
"You are now an official member of the Fett Lineage." - Temuera Morrison at ConNooga March 2, 2013

Stinghen's Avatar


Stinghen
11.08.2013 , 12:41 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Hell_Kaiser_Fett View Post
That's why it should be destroyed by the Sith, or at least caused by something a Sith/multiple Sith did. The problem is they made too many of their characters too op. Vitiate, immortal. Nox, immortal. Revan, never dying. Scourge, immortal. That in itself causes inconsistencies.
Vitiate doesn't die of old age. Truly immortal? Not quite. After his defeat at the Dark Temple, in fact, his own vulnerabilities are thrown into stark relief, and the Empire he so painstakingly built begins to fall apart, with Malgus and the Dread Masters rebelling, and (high hopes mode on) the true Old Sith showing their ugly faces again...

No indication that Darth Nox is immortal, even with his powers. One who knows what he is up against could succeed in killing him (say, the Barsen'thor, who knows how to deal with ghosts and their proxies, or powerful Sith that use ghosts for power too, by extension).

Revan never dying has not been proven fact yet, and (high hopes mode on again) these expectations will be debunked soon. Anyhow, the only thing that kept him alive beyond his time was Vitiate, and now Vitiate has no more interest in doing so. Ergo, his death is soon to come, even if he resurfaces.

And Scourge... well, I don't know to what extent he remains immortal after his rebellion (never played through JK story to learn more about him, so...). Besides, despite his undying status (different from true immortality, that doesn't die and can't be killed), his power isn't the greatest, and he is also committed to the defeat of Vitiate.

myrsosoth's Avatar


myrsosoth
11.08.2013 , 02:52 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by Stinghen View Post
Have you read the whole statement? KotOR is filled with lore-hijackings, TOR is not. I will explain, in a very long post elsewhere, is it is unecessary to illustrate the point to contribute with the topic.
lol All that, and all I wanted to know was how Kotor was guilty of "lore-jacking". As this discussion is largely moot anyway, the anti-Revan people having beaten this topic over the head.

See, in LOTRO, I understood why people were so incredibly severe about "lore" it being based on a the works of a great writer at least (which Lucas is not and never would have been. IF there'd ever been a 3 Stooges game, would there be 3 Stooges lore). But I don't understand it in this game which is based first off a comic book series (do people really take those seriously), and then off 2 games LOOSELY based on that series, but all of it owned by the the same copyright holder and ostensibly blessed by The Lucas and now Disney. Isn't "lore" what they say it is? Honest questions here. I hope this doesn't constitute thread-jacking.

Hell_Kaiser_Fett's Avatar


Hell_Kaiser_Fett
11.08.2013 , 03:20 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by Stinghen View Post
Vitiate doesn't die of old age. Truly immortal? Not quite. After his defeat at the Dark Temple, in fact, his own vulnerabilities are thrown into stark relief, and the Empire he so painstakingly built begins to fall apart, with Malgus and the Dread Masters rebelling, and (high hopes mode on) the true Old Sith showing their ugly faces again...

No indication that Darth Nox is immortal, even with his powers. One who knows what he is up against could succeed in killing him (say, the Barsen'thor, who knows how to deal with ghosts and their proxies, or powerful Sith that use ghosts for power too, by extension).

Revan never dying has not been proven fact yet, and (high hopes mode on again) these expectations will be debunked soon. Anyhow, the only thing that kept him alive beyond his time was Vitiate, and now Vitiate has no more interest in doing so. Ergo, his death is soon to come, even if he resurfaces.

And Scourge... well, I don't know to what extent he remains immortal after his rebellion (never played through JK story to learn more about him, so...). Besides, despite his undying status (different from true immortality, that doesn't die and can't be killed), his power isn't the greatest, and he is also committed to the defeat of Vitiate.
I said "immortal" meaning they won't die of old age, not "invincible" meaning they can't be killed. Big difference. Vitiate is proven immortal in the Revan book. Nox is more "invincible" than "immortal". Because he has bound those spirits to his own, he is essentially "dead" as he is now tied to the "spirit world", so if he is already "dead" then he cannot be killed.

The reason I mentioned Revan is because no matter what he lives through everything. He will be brought back over and over and survive every encounter, becoming as op as Luke in the EU.

As for Scourge, Vitiate used some of his power to make him immortal the same way he did, although because it was a cheap version of the ritual he used on himself, Scourge is in constant pain. And if you read up on Scourge, he is in fact pretty powerful, even without being immortal.
"You are now an official member of the Fett Lineage." - Temuera Morrison at ConNooga March 2, 2013

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Hell_Kaiser_Fett
11.08.2013 , 03:21 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by myrsosoth View Post
As this discussion is largely moot anyway, the anti-Revan people having beaten this topic over the head.
^ this
"You are now an official member of the Fett Lineage." - Temuera Morrison at ConNooga March 2, 2013

jovianus's Avatar


jovianus
11.08.2013 , 03:26 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by myrsosoth View Post
lol All that, and all I wanted to know was how Kotor was guilty of "lore-jacking". As this discussion is largely moot anyway, the anti-Revan people having beaten this topic over the head.

See, in LOTRO, I understood why people were so incredibly severe about "lore" it being based on a the works of a great writer at least (which Lucas is not and never would have been. IF there'd ever been a 3 Stooges game, would there be 3 Stooges lore). But I don't understand it in this game which is based first off a comic book series (do people really take those seriously), and then off 2 games LOOSELY based on that series, but all of it owned by the the same copyright holder and ostensibly blessed by The Lucas and now Disney. Isn't "lore" what they say it is? Honest questions here. I hope this doesn't constitute thread-jacking.
I don't care about any supposed 'lore-jacking'. I care about about people obsessing over "SUPER REVAN!!" being the absolute center of the Universe forever. We all ready had one game where we played Revan, and another where we played his confidante who went off to find him. It's 300 years later, can we move on please? NOPE!!! Revan is stll the key to everything, singlehandedly holding the Empire at bay and keeping the Emperor in check, blah blah blah.

Revan's horse is dead and rotting, can we stop beating it and let him rest in peace finally?

Stinghen's Avatar


Stinghen
11.08.2013 , 07:37 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by myrsosoth View Post
lol All that, and all I wanted to know was how Kotor was guilty of "lore-jacking". As this discussion is largely moot anyway, the anti-Revan people having beaten this topic over the head.

See, in LOTRO, I understood why people were so incredibly severe about "lore" it being based on a the works of a great writer at least (which Lucas is not and never would have been. IF there'd ever been a 3 Stooges game, would there be 3 Stooges lore). But I don't understand it in this game which is based first off a comic book series (do people really take those seriously), and then off 2 games LOOSELY based on that series, but all of it owned by the the same copyright holder and ostensibly blessed by The Lucas and now Disney. Isn't "lore" what they say it is? Honest questions here. I hope this doesn't constitute thread-jacking.
As I said, kid, KotOR's lore-hijacks do not pertain to this topic so directly, so I won't be posting them here. Actually, the fact people expected SWTOR to be all about Revan, or that Bioware should make Revan fans happy by giving them plenty of Revan content just to satisfy them simply shows that fans don't give two craps about lore-hijacks, so long as it is Revan or another of the frightening spawns of the KotOR series doing the hijacking. Gladly, Bioware feels otherwise, or so it seems, and they worked very hard to make this game not about Revan. Where quality and consistency is concerned, both of the portrayed Galaxy and the story, SWTOR >> kotor.

Just because the owners of the franchise say what's lore and what's not does not mean that: I. I have to like it. I don't like half the crap that the EU spawns, and neither should any cerebral creature do so if he has the brains in the right place. If I were the lore-boss, none of that would have passed. But I'm not, all that is lore, and all I can do is highlight how that sort of thing makes the Star Wars universe more stupid. II. That the "new lore" that came with this very profitable venture (such as a videogame is) does not contradict several sources of EU lore that predated it.

So yeah. What pays more becomes the lore, and unfortunately for the cerebral beings, KotOR paid more so now we must suffer through Revan time and again, even when Bioware showed they were well intent and willing to move beyond Revan as they should.

And how is Star Wars different to Lord of the Rings? Tolkien only made the (more correct) decision to not let other authors interfere with his work, and so the world of Arda has retained (at least until Tolkien's death) its purity and internal consistency. But Lucas chose to open his universe to anyone who wanted to write about it, then we get aberrations such as Boba Fett and Darth Sidious surviving/coming back to life, Sith Lords who can eat worlds and Revan. What was the end result of the openness of the EU? Much good stuff was created (like much of TOR when you take away the clichès and absurdities, including Vitiate), but all internal consistency of the universe was lost for it. So it can never truly compare to the universe of The Lord of the Rings in consistency, depth and quality. All that it will surpass LotR in is in having a longer story.

Just on a sidenote, SWTOR wasn't "based off some comic book series". The comics were released after the storyline of SWTOR was already written and decided upon, and just before the game itself was released.

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Hell_Kaiser_Fett
11.09.2013 , 10:05 AM | #50
I honestly like a good bit of the EU, such as the Jedi Knight series games. Kyle Katarn was a very cool character imo. If Lucas hadn't let anyone else do anything with Star Wars, we wouldn't have the great games we have, or even some of the great books that exist as well. Sidious living was just plain stupid, as was Boba Fett, but a lot of good came out of it as well. There's always going to be something you don't like about whatever, but you aren't forced to like it either. Personally, I'm not looking forward to the new movies coming out. I don't care for abrams or how the new movies will turn out, but they could in fact ruin Star Wars worse than you believe Revan and KotOR did.
"You are now an official member of the Fett Lineage." - Temuera Morrison at ConNooga March 2, 2013