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More to do with Revan and Revanites please!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
More to do with Revan and Revanites please!

AlrikFassbauer's Avatar


AlrikFassbauer
11.07.2013 , 07:16 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by jovianus View Post
I actually consider that one of the perks of playing a Republic toon, I don't have to hear anything about Revan until the Foundry.
For me, it's just being jealous that "they" have something "we" don't have - I play almost exclusively Republic characters.

Plus, I found this quest series very good, especially in the sense of spiritualty - a them so alien in modern's Nerd World that it should really be in the Republic as well ...

The Republic has no quest chain that looks like that even from a far distance. Instead, we (Republic Players) learn to know the Gree ... I'd happily switch both at the second !

I'm so sick already of these unimaginative Republic quests ... If you want to have deep story lines full of Drama, like a Space Opera, then go over into the Imperial side - a clear sign of Imperial Faction favouritism in my eyes. Bah !
I'm a bad player.
I have no good reputation.
I never will.
Only bad reputation.

Suromir's Avatar


Suromir
11.07.2013 , 09:41 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by jedimasterjac View Post
Revan just needs to die.
This. He's so overrated. And yes I loved KotOR.

not to mention. play the foundry. He not only fell back to the Darkside but does so in a manner that renders him a genocidal lunatic.

Besides he's dead. Only way he's coming back is via Force-Ghost...whether you're of the mind he's dead for good from the Foundry or convinced he'll be back..his physical body was destroyed.

Let Revan stay dead. We have enough Genocidal Maniacs already..in fact the Empire is filled with them.

Stinghen's Avatar


Stinghen
11.07.2013 , 09:57 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by jovianus View Post
Please no, I am so tired of hearing about Revan. Not every Star Wars game for the rest of time needs to revolve around him. It's bad enough that they had to cram him into SWTOR in spite of the fact that it's been 300 years since KotOR, let him stay dead in the Foundry.
That's the sort of lore-hijacking that makes me mad. When the creator of Revan tampered with the Bane story to stick his masked imbecile of a character as the source for the most awesome move in Sith history, the Rule of Two, I wanted to eat his liver.

I actually got into an argument pubside once, where the bloke believed that Revan had actually created the Rule of Two, rather than simply giving an account that inspired Bane to create it.

Hell_Kaiser_Fett's Avatar


Hell_Kaiser_Fett
11.07.2013 , 11:25 AM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Stinghen View Post
I agree, I just don't think he was about to win xD



Now with that, I completely disagree. Revan died at the Foundry. And he didn't become an OP mofo, he's as fallible as ever. So much so that, as I elaborated on my former post, he fell to the Dark Side again, and was shamefully defeated again, only this time for good. To me, this single flashpoint redeems a decade of idiotic, anachronistic lore hijackings introduced with KotOR 1 and 2. I forgive Bioware for the lore-crime that was KotOR 1, because now they learned to adequately read and interpret the existing lore before creating a game storyline. So the heart of the matter, what really gets the fanboys is this: they're angry because Revan's no longer the superhero. Or never was, really (mind-wiped by the Jedi? It's another stupid KotOR creation, sure, but what happened to "the Force can have a powerful influence on the weak-minded"? Was Revan weak-minded? Because being mind-wiped is just ridiculous), except in people's fanciful imaginations.



Revan's dead, mate. He died frothing, thinking he could commit to his usual "ends justify the means" approach regardless of cost. Let him go gracefully, while he still has some shred of an interesting and offbeat personality. He doesn't have to be a hero. The fact he was the antihero is the reason why he failed in the first place (both in the Mandalorian Wars and in the Foundry), and that's better than "the death he deserves" (the death you feel he deserves, really).

Here's the problem. This is not KotOR, this is The Old Republic. Revan's not the plot anymore (since KotOR 2, in fact!), he is instead the matter of legend (among the Jedi and the Sith - just look at the Revanites). If he turns up again and winds up saving the day, then I take back everything I said about TOR having a decent storyline right then and there, because it will be just cheesy, and showing of Bioware's desire of fawning over their own creations in an overblown manner.
Again, lets keep it civil here. First, I am far from a Revan fanboy. I like the character, how he was a hero, became the villain, proving he is fallible, unlike other characters (not just in Star Wars). However, he was a good character, even though he did become overrated, which I hate. But, he is definitely not my favorite character, not even close. Jango Fett, Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Mace Windu, Darth Vader (original trilogy), just to name a few. Even the Troopers, Storm, Sand, Scout, Clone, they are all above Revan on my list (I've had a Trooper obsession ever since ANH).

As far as his ending in the book, I like it "looking" like he could win, that way the reader can interpret what could have happened had Scourge not betrayed them for themselves. As far as Revan dying, he did not die. In swtor beta, he did die, however that upset a lot of "fanboys" so they changed it for the final version, bioware has even said so themselves, so they can use him later if they choose too, which you know means they will. The thing is, we like Revan, you don't, and thats ok. It's all a matter of opinion, just like I think Luke and Palpy got to OP in the EU. I like Luke, just more so before Palpatine came back, which is who I think should have stayed dead.

Now, on the subject of Revan's mind wipe, I agree with you there, but I liked the main story of KotOR. Darth Revan was a great villain, and I enjoyed the way he was portrayed as a Sith. But, I do agree the mind wipe was dumb.

I can also agree that Revan is not the hero of swtor, and I support that. However, were it not for Revan, the Sith Empire would have came and utterly destroyed the Republic. Had he not held Vitiate back, he would have attacked 300 years prior when the Republic was weakened from not one, not two, but three different wars, The Mandalorian Wars, The Jedi Civil War, and the Dark Wars with the Sith Triumvirate. Even with Meetra and the other, they wouldn't have had a chance against the Sith Empire.

So, thinking in that way I realize I gave him too big an ending. Or rather, the wrong role in his end. As I stated, Bioware said he is not dead so they can use him later, so I have thought of another way they could end his story. Since you want him to stay an antihero, perhaps he does something that would wipe out the Empire and do something else, causing both sides to go after him, or perhaps the Empire tried to kill him, while the Republic tries to save him, but arrives too late. Maybe have Satele go to save him, only to fail, thus being fallible herself. He could even become Darth Revan again, using the dark side as a necessary evil as a means to an end. That way anti-Revan people get to kill him and "fanboys" get to see him have a better death than poof of light, which again was just Fold Space, not death.

Either way, Bioware will use him again one day, hopefully not overrating him like they have been, and the fans can get a decent death out of him.

Also, if anything, I'm a Qui-Gon fanboy to the end. Hate Phantom Menace all you want, I still say he's the best Jedi ever.
"You are now an official member of the Fett Lineage." - Temuera Morrison at ConNooga March 2, 2013

Xakthul's Avatar


Xakthul
11.07.2013 , 04:32 PM | #35
The only class that really went "space opera" for me was the Smuggler.

And even that wasn't really opera. More like Midsummer's Night Dream.

But I love satire, so no complaining.
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myrsosoth's Avatar


myrsosoth
11.07.2013 , 06:04 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Pietrastor View Post
anachronistic lore hijackings introduced with KotOR 1 and 2. I forgive Bioware for the lore-crime that was KotOR 1, because now they learned to adequately read and interpret the existing lore before creating a game storyline..

Elaborate.

Exactly how is it lore-jacking?

Revan should be laid to the rest, but the existence of the Revanites does make for fascinating possibilities. Particularly if it consists of a different breed of force users wherein not everything is black and white, that there is plenty of room for grey.

LordGarmaZabi's Avatar


LordGarmaZabi
11.07.2013 , 06:43 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Stinghen View Post
I cannot understand why people get so worked up about a blank slate.
It's pretty much that, people don't like THE Revan, they like THEIR Revan. He's basically the pinnacle of self insert fanfic character evolution.

Kilikaa's Avatar


Kilikaa
11.07.2013 , 07:11 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Stinghen View Post
Now with that, I completely disagree. Revan died at the Foundry. And he didn't become an OP mofo, he's as fallible as ever. So much so that, as I elaborated on my former post, he fell to the Dark Side again, and was shamefully defeated again, only this time for good. To me, this single flashpoint redeems a decade of idiotic, anachronistic lore hijackings introduced with KotOR 1 and 2. I forgive Bioware for the lore-crime that was KotOR 1, because now they learned to adequately read and interpret the existing lore before creating a game storyline. So the heart of the matter, what really gets the fanboys is this: they're angry because Revan's no longer the superhero. Or never was, really (mind-wiped by the Jedi? It's another stupid KotOR creation, sure, but what happened to "the Force can have a powerful influence on the weak-minded"? Was Revan weak-minded? Because being mind-wiped is just ridiculous), except in people's fanciful imaginations.
Revan was weak minded. You sem to forget that he was seriously injured. When the Jedi boarded his ship to try and capture him, Malak opened fire in an attempt to kill his 'master' and become the new sith lord. Revan's brain was wrecked as a result of such an attack. In fact, Bastila had to use the Force to keep him alive. Once they got him back to the Jedi the Council used their powers to wipe his mind. They were able to do this ONLY because his mind was badly damaged he could not provide any resistance.

So the mind wiping makes perfect sense and works great. I just want to add that I am only a fan of the Revan I played in the game, the one I created and RP'ed. The true Revan is over-rated and not a character I like much. I am not defending the character, but I did have to point out that the mind wipe incident makes a lot more sense than you think it does.

Stinghen's Avatar


Stinghen
11.07.2013 , 08:30 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by myrsosoth View Post
Elaborate.

Exactly how is it lore-jacking?

Revan should be laid to the rest, but the existence of the Revanites does make for fascinating possibilities. Particularly if it consists of a different breed of force users wherein not everything is black and white, that there is plenty of room for grey.
Have you read the whole statement? KotOR is filled with lore-hijackings, TOR is not. I will explain, in a very long post elsewhere, is it is unecessary to illustrate the point to contribute with the topic. Suffice to say the KotOR plot is filled not only with hijackings, but with inconsistencies and internal strains and loopholes that prompt me to peg it as a festering open wound upon the EU, better to never have existed. This may sound biased, (I don't really care that it does), but it actually has some ground, so bear with the above statement of my opinion (in case I need to justify just dropping it there, I can ***** about K1 and K2 for hours, but that has nothing to do with the topic, and I will be sure to soon create a fitting topic to get that out of my chest in an apporpriate manner xD)

So, to me, SWTOR is Bioware's delayed (and overly expensive!) apology to the decade-worth of lore-hijackings and butchery, and one of the best examples of this is the Revanite cult. With this, unlike with KotOR1, BW showed that they can take a previous event, and actually create a very plausible outcome that would emerge a long time after the true events have come and gone. It is late, so I am talking in circles. But let me explain xD

The Revanite is a personality cult born from the misinterpretation of the historical role of a long-gone figure. In short, they took the real story, twisted it about and created a veritable religion from it. But they were misguided in truth, and their view of their "god" was not accurate (as Revan himself states at the Foundry, if the Revanite cult is mentioned). And the very fact you can choose their destiny - to either aid them or thwart them (in contrast with KotOR 2, where you must stand and hear a crazy nutty old bat whine to no end about how Revan was always right even when he was wrong and that all your character accomplishes Revan would do better and how the only way for you to show quality is if you follow him because he knows what's what you have to follow him) - makes the Revanite quest a welcome addition to SWTOR, because it is a very minor plot element, of much less importance than the actual SWTOR plot - which is the Cold War between Empire and Republic.

For that particular reason, I believe that further Revanite-related quests, if approached correctly (as I think the DK Revanite quests were), would not be something to complain about. Maybe they could shoot a planet whose generic planet-story quests could revolve around the remnants of the Revanites, and the players once again get to choose - either to seal the lid of the casket, or to consolidate their place amongst the heretics in the Sith Empire.

But more Revan content? Hell no. It is an unfortunate decision Bioware decided to provide that sort of fan service (though it is interesting for the single reason because it debunks the "gray Jedi Revan" theory quite efficiently), and the presence of Revan in TOR prompted Karpyshyn to write that novel (which killed the character to many people who actually liked the KotOR 2 depiction of Revan through Traya's words) in order to link KotOR 2 to TOR.

But before I saw any more Revan content, or even Revanite content... BW already left so many unexplored plot hooks that would play off into new and awesome, galaxy-shaking events. Take one of the statements made by Gnost-Dural during the timeline videos - where he theorises Vitiate's Empire is really at odds with ancient Sith spirits as Marka Ragnos (which could be taken as a truer, purer form of Sith tradition than Vitiate's own, which changed consistently to incorporate a cult to Vitiate's own personality above all else). Another plot line that was left too loose was Darth Nox's own cult - more quests in that regard (class-sidequests, why not?) would be a welcome addition. I only played the Sorceror through to the end, so I don't know about other classes, but I am sure there are some loose ends I would much rather see Bioware approach than just feeding the fanboys with more Revan-related content.

Quote: Originally Posted by LordGarmaZabi View Post
It's pretty much that, people don't like THE Revan, they like THEIR Revan. He's basically the pinnacle of self insert fanfic character evolution.
That's a sad statement. I leave the judgement as to whether it is true or not to others, but, Hell! Revan was their Revan, now he's a plot element, a bloody NPC. Their character, look at that, is their actual MMO toon. Do they not shape them as they like too? I know I do. But people hoped they could recreate and play as Revan again? Sad, just sad. Puerile.

QuiDonJorn's Avatar


QuiDonJorn
11.07.2013 , 10:51 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Stinghen View Post
Have you read the whole statement? KotOR is filled with lore-hijackings, TOR is not. I will explain, in a very long post elsewhere, is it is unecessary to illustrate the point to contribute with the topic. Suffice to say the KotOR plot is filled not only with hijackings, but with inconsistencies and internal strains and loopholes that prompt me to peg it as a festering open wound upon the EU, better to never have existed. This may sound biased, (I don't really care that it does), but it actually has some ground, so bear with the above statement of my opinion (in case I need to justify just dropping it there, I can ***** about K1 and K2 for hours, but that has nothing to do with the topic, and I will be sure to soon create a fitting topic to get that out of my chest in an apporpriate manner xD)

So, to me, SWTOR is Bioware's delayed (and overly expensive!) apology to the decade-worth of lore-hijackings and butchery, and one of the best examples of this is the Revanite cult. With this, unlike with KotOR1, BW showed that they can take a previous event, and actually create a very plausible outcome that would emerge a long time after the true events have come and gone. It is late, so I am talking in circles. But let me explain xD

The Revanite is a personality cult born from the misinterpretation of the historical role of a long-gone figure. In short, they took the real story, twisted it about and created a veritable religion from it. But they were misguided in truth, and their view of their "god" was not accurate (as Revan himself states at the Foundry, if the Revanite cult is mentioned). And the very fact you can choose their destiny - to either aid them or thwart them (in contrast with KotOR 2, where you must stand and hear a crazy nutty old bat whine to no end about how Revan was always right even when he was wrong and that all your character accomplishes Revan would do better and how the only way for you to show quality is if you follow him because he knows what's what you have to follow him) - makes the Revanite quest a welcome addition to SWTOR, because it is a very minor plot element, of much less importance than the actual SWTOR plot - which is the Cold War between Empire and Republic.

For that particular reason, I believe that further Revanite-related quests, if approached correctly (as I think the DK Revanite quests were), would not be something to complain about. Maybe they could shoot a planet whose generic planet-story quests could revolve around the remnants of the Revanites, and the players once again get to choose - either to seal the lid of the casket, or to consolidate their place amongst the heretics in the Sith Empire.

But more Revan content? Hell no. It is an unfortunate decision Bioware decided to provide that sort of fan service (though it is interesting for the single reason because it debunks the "gray Jedi Revan" theory quite efficiently), and the presence of Revan in TOR prompted Karpyshyn to write that novel (which killed the character to many people who actually liked the KotOR 2 depiction of Revan through Traya's words) in order to link KotOR 2 to TOR.

But before I saw any more Revan content, or even Revanite content... BW already left so many unexplored plot hooks that would play off into new and awesome, galaxy-shaking events. Take one of the statements made by Gnost-Dural during the timeline videos - where he theorises Vitiate's Empire is really at odds with ancient Sith spirits as Marka Ragnos (which could be taken as a truer, purer form of Sith tradition than Vitiate's own, which changed consistently to incorporate a cult to Vitiate's own personality above all else). Another plot line that was left too loose was Darth Nox's own cult - more quests in that regard (class-sidequests, why not?) would be a welcome addition. I only played the Sorceror through to the end, so I don't know about other classes, but I am sure there are some loose ends I would much rather see Bioware approach than just feeding the fanboys with more Revan-related content.



That's a sad statement. I leave the judgement as to whether it is true or not to others, but, Hell! Revan was their Revan, now he's a plot element, a bloody NPC. Their character, look at that, is their actual MMO toon. Do they not shape them as they like too? I know I do. But people hoped they could recreate and play as Revan again? Sad, just sad. Puerile.
Wow. Yeah, dude, yeah. You're saying everything I've been thinking for a long, long time. I'm in total agreeance with just about everything you've been saying. I just wish they would kill him off for good sooner than later.