ETA on Advanced Class change?

Maybe some of them were against adaptive armor, too: "You want to look like you're wearing heavy armor? Roll a heavy armor toon!" Not accusing anyone in particular.

You weren't in the beta were you.. Because if you were, you wouldn't have made such a baseless remark..

It is just that many of us know that there is a difference between changing your spec and changing your class.. One does not justify the other..

But again.. Another failed attempt to even come up with a valid reason for class changing..

Remember the game says your choice will be permanent.. You have to explain why the game must be changed..

Maybe before you try to speculate what someone else is thinking you should be concerned about what you are not thinking about.. Like how to deny the game saying on at least 4 separate occasions that our choice of AC is permanent one.. Perhaps how to justify this idea that clearly Bioware and the majority of people do not want..

Perhaps come up with a reason that doesn't make you all look lazy..

Honestly.. You are having a lot of problems just dealing with the obvious.. I wouldn't try to understand the people not only understand the obvious, but agree with it..

I don't think anyone here is denying that it says they 4 times its just that right now it seems that your whole argument is based off the number 4 and it saying that while we are giving reasons for it you just keep on saying "Well it says it 4 times" and assume that to mean it will never happen.

No my entire argument is that all I hear from the people that want AC swap is that I must come up with a valid reason as to why AC swapping should not be allowed.. .. That is complete and utter BS.. I don't have to come up with squat!! I am not the one asking for a change in the game..

Then there is this big debate about what Bioware has said.. Well.. It says, at least on 4 different occasions that our choice is permanent.. Bioware when out of their way to make sure that point was perfectly clear.. That it wasn't something that could be doubted.. Yet here we are arguing about the obvious..

There is no assumption here.. What part of permanent do you not understand?? It will forever dominate your destiny.. That seems pretty permanent to me.. Why would anything think it would happen in the future?? There is no evidence to support that claim..

Yes yes.. These wonderful quotes from Bioware that don't say anything.. It is amazing how many people don't understand what a soft 'No' is.. But lets look at the evidence.. What the game says which is pretty much a clear and straight forward now, and all the quotes from Bioware that essentially amount to nothing more but a soft 'No'.. Basically they say absolutely nothing.. 'We have talked about adding this eventually.' There isn't a single quote out there anywhere that says it will happen and when.. There just isn't.. So the game is really all we have to go by.. But oddly enough, the game is what is continuously ignored or discounted.. Why is that by the way??

And still nobody on the pro side of things have offered any kind of argument as to why class changing should be allowed.. They are to busy worried about my arguments.. I am guessing it is because the folks that want AC swapping really don't have an argument. They just want to say they want it, but not to actually have to justify it to someone else or even Bioware..

You get it right!! I thought you weren't talking to me??

Trooper is not your class and Bioware has never implied that Trooper, Smuggler, or anything else is our class.. They have however said that our AC would be treated as your class.. That is just the way it is..

When you find the talent trees for a trooper, Jedi Knight, Trooper, or Jedi Consular, you let me know.. Because I would tend to think that in order for trooper to be considered a class, I would need talent trees.. There are none..

What is being discussed here is AC swapping.. Which is swapping your class..

Well.. If you were paying attention.. What is listed there is our stories.. Nobody actually plays as a trooper, Jedi Conular, Jedi Knight, or Smuggler.. You are a Shadow, a Sentinel, a Gunslinger, a Commando, and others..

There are no talent trees for a trooper.. There are no talent trees for a smuggler... There are no talent trees for a Jedi Consular.. I would guess that talent trees would be required to consider something a class..

Wouldn't you??

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes/trooper

Not only have they directly stated Trooper is your class, they have clearly done so many times, on many occasions. AND they have also stated that they see ACs and fundamentally different class designs.

So your statement is completely wrong, followed by this reply that is again, completely wrong. They have implied both. You present a singular opinion, how you view it as a fact and expect folks to respect your views as bible. And that is preposterous IMO. You have a right to view it as a class, not as a class....any way you want, just like anyone else. You DO NOT, however, get to define that for others, nor deny others the same right and then demand folks take you seriously or respect your views.

You certainly can not make statements structured as facts that are clear fallacies without at least providing the disclaimer that they are your views only...just opinion.

You post something that is inaccurate, I correct you. You want to post something else that is inaccurate that is your choice.

I would prefer you actually start posting more facts and less fallacies that you claim are facts or present in an absolute structure that makes them appear to be facts.

Now...you can choose from this point forward to NOT directly reply to my posts as if we are having a conversation and you will get the same respect and consideration, or you can do what you are doing and have me hold your feet to the fire on every single fallacy you try to present as fact.

And that is how it's going to be. The choice is yours.

IMO. Means "in my opinion". Also statements like "from my perspective", "my feelings are", " I think that", "I see that as" and the like all demonstrate that what you provide is an opinion. I suggest you learn how you properly present your thoughts and you will avoid this kind of trouble in the future.

Trooper is not your class and Bioware has never implied that Trooper, Smuggler, or anything else is our class.

This is a false statement that is open to harsh debate and ridicule.

Trooper is not your class IMO and Bioware has never implied that Trooper, Smuggler, or anything else is our class from my perspective other than perhaps using that name as a classification...it seems to me they have presented them more as storylines despite the title.

THIS is a factual statement IMO because it is a fact that this is your opinion.

I couldn't find any new ideas, or new pros/cons, so the list remains unchanged for now.

Current list, pros and cons as reported by participants.


Option 1

Level 10 to 15 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - 24 hour cooldown - once you reach level 16 AC is permanent - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 2

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 3

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - no reduction in level - one month cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 4

Level 10 to 30 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 5

Level 10 to 46 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will up to 46 - no reduction in level - no cooldown - once you reach level 47 AC is permanent - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 6

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 7

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - Must level one character to max level in an AC to unlock legacy ability to switch AC for that class - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 8

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - maximum 8 changes per account, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 9

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum number of changes - must change at AC trainers on fleet - 1 Week cooldown - Option for AC change unlocked as Character Perk for 600 cartel Coins (or 1.5 million credits) - Each subsequent AC change costs 40 cartel coins (or 100,000 credits).

Option 10

Level 40 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.


Option 11

No AC change allowed.



And this is the pro and con list as it stands right now. It is certainly open for more additions or corrections.


PROS

1. breathing life into characters that may have been abandoned and thus extending someone's stay in game, their enjoyment in game.
2. allowing people who only have fun playing through a story once - experiment with their character without having to suffer through the story they already know and aren't having fun replaying.
3. allowing people to keep using unique, no longer acquirable items, that include pets, speeders, crystals, armor shells, as well as legacy perk unlocks on a character they have grown attached to, while enjoying the game play style that works better for them, within the same archetype, rather than having to reroll from scratch and lose all the investment they made into a character.
4. making extra money for bioware by making ac switch purchasable with cartel coins.

CONS

1) I would expect that many folks are not going to react well to this change if implemented.
2) They flirted with the idea before launch, even talked about it publicly, but in the end decided not to allow it. At the time folks were pretty dead set against it. I don't think it's likely the current environment has changed much since then.
3) Some classes could end up underrepresented due to bad design. Right now some folks stick with an AC they choose because they would have to reroll and do not wish to do so I would guess.
4) If restrictions are not in place this could end up being abused or exploited.
5) This will likely further demean AC choice.
6) Could cause FOTM issues.
7) If late game AC change is allowed it could end up causing folks that have an AC but do not know how to properly play it running Raids and Operations, making an existing problem worse.


I am willing to begrudgingly support option 1, option 7 but would prefer option 11. The idea of option 7 has some appeal...you have to level an AC to max level to get a legacy unlock you can use to switch to that AC inside the class for another character account wide. That still give AC meaning IMO.

I still prefer no AC change, but I'm somewhat willing to support 1 and 7. I personally do not feel option 10 is a good idea as I think it would possibly have a negative impact on the game, more likely than an early change.

I would also add what I would like to see happen with respect to AC.

1) Bioware would come out and publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that AC IS YOUR CLASS.

2) Make AC choice mandatory at level 10, move all abilities under the AC heading in the abilities pane and remove the base class header, move all trainable abilities from that point forward under the AC header on the trainer.

3) Remove all references in the game to your base class that can be removed once you choose your AC.

4) Add a small quest line at max level that is AC specific, where they refer to your AC directly.

IMO this would make the choice more meaningful.

I do think, however, that Dual Spec would be fine.

Dual spec - Allowed when you choose your spec onward, but open use is only allowed after you conclude your class story.

Before your story conclusion dual spec would be restricted to use inside heroics, flashpoints, operations and warzones UNLESS the groupfinder tool allows you a free spec swap while qued to fill missing roles. It would be a permanent unlock feature, allowing you to save a particular setup...it saves point allocation and bar locations of specials but not gear setup. it would have a one hour cooldown, and would cost either EC or CC.

After conclusion of your storyline you are unlocked to spec swap any time you wish.

This does not remove the cost of respecing...only saves the spec loadouts, positions of abilities on action bars, etc....you can still choose to forgo the dual spec route and manually redeploy your points and abilities.

When you find the talent tree for the trooper you let me know.. Because until you do, you are going to have to live with the fact that you are wrong.. Sorry..

What exactly do you expect Bioware to call Trooper, Jedi Knight, Smuggler, and others?? Yes they are called classes.. But they are not player classes.. We play them for a brief period before we select our real classes.. So come on now.. This doesn't have to be hard.. There are no talent trees associated with Trooper, Jedi Consular, or any of the others.. Can we at least agree that a player class must have talent trees??

It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that Bioware did it this way so that we could have 16 classes, but only have the expense of 8 stories..

You can argue symantics all you want.. Because you are not making a point here..