My guildmaster has decided to go another route re: tanking, that is to maximize damage (aka threat) admittedly at the cost of some survivability.

It does have a greater reliance on healers (but they're pre-casting anyway right?) but given that his group can down 8 man nightmare dread council then it obviously works for them.

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/assassin#1220322123212110220322-203-203

In terms of itemization, he has his 4 slot tanking bonus, and he's sitting around 23% defense, 55% shield and 39% absorb, but he also has some power pieces and last time I checked the stalker underworld mainhand.

My guildmaster has decided to go another route re: tanking, that is to maximize damage (aka threat) admittedly at the cost of some survivability.

 

It does have a greater reliance on healers (but they're pre-casting anyway right?) but given that his group can down 8 man nightmare dread council then it obviously works for them.

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/assassin#1220322123212110220322-203-203

 

In terms of itemization, he has his 4 slot tanking bonus, and he's sitting around 23% defense, 55% shield and 39% absorb, but he also has some power pieces and last time I checked the stalker underworld mainhand.

Threat is a complete non-issue on dg nim. You will use one Force Pull (i also use a taunt but tahts probably unnecrerssary) at the begining at that is your threat. If he's going for more damage caue you have problems with your enrage timer, you should probably look more on your dps, then on your tank.

The sith defiance dalent seems for me atleast way too important to get rid of it (even if you are going for as much threat as possible 2% damage reduction is really a lot). It's probably better to switch the 2 avoidance points into sith defiance.

Is this regarding your opening or your rotation priorities?

 

In terms of opening it's better to delay the shock for a couple of reasons:

1. You want to get your debuffs from wither and discharge on the target asap.

2. Better threat with wither, you don't want dps to be pulling off you.

You will probably get your 2nd shock in at the same time with my method if the energize procs off your first thrash.

 

 

In terms of rotation it doesn't build stacks quicker.

 

Assuming both methods get no procs and discharge is removed as it can replace a non procing thrash with no effect.

Yours: shock>wither>thrash>thrash>shock>lightning (shock still on cd)

>wither>shock>thrash>thrash>thrash>shock>lightning (repeat this line)

Mine: wither>shock>thrash>thrash>thrash>shock>lightning (repeat)

It's the same basic rotation.

 

When you introduce energize procs it works against you as you want to activate the set cooldown first so that if it energize procs you can ignore more of the cooldown.

Yours: Shock>Wither>Thrash (energize procs: CD on wither 7.5s, CD on Shock 0s)

Mine: Wither>Shock>Thrash (energize procs: CD on wither 6s, CD on Shock 0s)

 

Prioritizing shock over discharge debuff refreshing would give you stacks quicker but is not worth the trade off for the boss not having the 5% accuracy loss (note that this is not the same as using discharge on cooldown).

Actually, I don't know why you think Wither does better threat than Shock. If you are using the Spec in your opening post then Shock will always do more threat that Wither, even without the proc that makes it auto crit. If you want to check it out, it's pretty easy to tell just by doing the math of listed ability damage and threat modifiers. Otherwise, you can also tell by looking at your combat logs after a boss fight.

I always open with shock in a single target pull specifically because it does more threat and because 1.5 seconds without the debuff from Wither isn't enough time for a boss to do noticeably different damage.

Actually, I don't know why you think Wither does better threat than Shock. If you are using the Spec in your opening post then Shock will always do more threat that Wither, even without the proc that makes it auto crit. If you want to check it out, it's pretty easy to tell just by doing the math of listed ability damage and threat modifiers. Otherwise, you can also tell by looking at your combat logs after a boss fight.

 

I always open with shock in a single target pull specifically because it does more threat and because 1.5 seconds without the debuff from Wither isn't enough time for a boss to do noticeably different damage.

Shock only gives u more threat than wither if you get the chain shock proc, this is only a 45% chance.

(wither non-crit ~ 4k, shock ~ 3.5k)

By going with wither first you have the reliability of the extra 10% minimum over shock's higher average threat. You want to be basing your opening off a worst possible situation (no crits, no procs) that's why I'd go with wither.

What is Def used for mostly?

Def is used for melee and ranged attacks since, unlike Shield and Absorb, it doesn't work on F/T + K/E attacks. Furthermore, the value of Shield and Absorb is contingent upon the presence of Shield and Absorb improvement talents. Since Shad/Sins pack more of that than any other AC (20% +Shield and ~10% +Absorb), we get more out of Shield and Absorb than any other AC. On top of that, Shield and Absorb are the best stats for smoothing out the incoming damage profile, which is a major concern for Shad/Sins doing ops.

Basically, Shad/Sins are *built* to love the crap out of Shield and Absorb. Defense isn't less useful for Shad/Sins than for the other tanks; it's just that Shield and Absorb are more valuable.

Something else you may want to consider is that S&V and TfB have *drastically* different incoming damage profiles. S&V has a vast majority of the damage as M/R, which means that Defense is more valuable there than it would be otherwise. TfB has a *lot* more F/T damage, which means that Defense is much *less* valuable. Optimal loadouts for Shad/Sins in S&V tend to be roughly a 1:2:2 Def/Shield/Abs split; TfB, on the other hand, is pretty much entirely Shield and Absorb.

Some people recommend keeping 2 separate sets of tank gear, one optimized for TfB and another for S&V. Personally, that's too much work for me. I gear myself for S&V, simply because I do it more often and it's got the more difficult boss fights for Shadows. The difference between the mitigation loadouts isn't all *that* major, since you only sacrifice ~20% of your total itemization budget to Defense, a lot of which would be eaten by DR curves if it were fed into Shield and Absorb. Honestly, it's just personal preference (likely governed by which ops you're currently attempting to progress through and which fights are most problematic for you, as a tank).

I'd agree roughly with what Kitru posted.

In terms of gearing as you progress. I would keep you shield rating at whatever value provided by enhancements/ears/implants (No shield augments), and after that try and keep your defence:absorb ration about 1:2.

This will give you a good balance for any content you want to run.

I would keep you shield rating at whatever value provided by enhancements/ears/implants (No shield augments), and after that try and keep your defence:absorb ration about 1:2.

This will give you a good balance for any content you want to run.

I always try to get at least 3-4 Shield augs in there since, if you're stacking mitigation, you'll be just a bit shy of the required Shield for the optimal mitigation distribution with just the enhancements. I've *honestly* considered dropped all of my Absorb augs for Shield augs to maximize my chances of Shielding, so as to ameliorate some of my spike woes. It would mean a drop in mean mitigation but a reduction in spikiness, which, considering the comparative importance of each in the current metagame, would likely end up increasing survivability.

I always try to get at least 3-4 Shield augs in there since, if you're stacking mitigation, you'll be just a bit shy of the required Shield for the optimal mitigation distribution with just the enhancements. I've *honestly* considered dropped all of my Absorb augs for Shield augs to maximize my chances of Shielding, so as to ameliorate some of my spike woes. It would mean a drop in mean mitigation but a reduction in spikiness, which, considering the comparative importance of each in the current metagame, would likely end up increasing survivability.

Any idea how much migation is lost if you would change to all shield augments?

I always try to get at least 3-4 Shield augs in there since, if you're stacking mitigation, you'll be just a bit shy of the required Shield for the optimal mitigation distribution with just the enhancements. I've *honestly* considered dropped all of my Absorb augs for Shield augs to maximize my chances of Shielding, so as to ameliorate some of my spike woes. It would mean a drop in mean mitigation but a reduction in spikiness, which, considering the comparative importance of each in the current metagame, would likely end up increasing survivability.

I disagree with this,

First part: unless your enhancements are lagging behind your other gear you won't need more shield to be optimal mitigation, also you'll end up replacing them later on costing more money.

Second Part: The drop in mitigation will be small but the change in spikeyness will be minute, not worth it imo.

Just wondering but what relics would you run with in SnV HM (or NiM)? right now i run with 2 proc relics defence and zorb procs...i tend to have most my problems at thrasher

I currently run a Kell dragon defence proc relic (must have) and the ewh defence relic. The second relic can also be either the shield proc or heal proc relic, all are equally viable.

There are 3 key things to beating thrasher.

1. Managing your cooldowns (only use them when u get knocked up, 1st time deflection, 2nd overcharge saber and adrenal, then repeat).

2. Not eating red circles, this is for the entire raid, they do so much damage it puts the healers behind and sometimes one shots people, more than a couple of hits and it becomes impossible to heal.

3. Positioning, we send a healer and melee dps up when the tank gets knocked up, this removes LoS healing issues and allows the dps to go after the rocket person easily. If anyone's mispositioned for the knock up it can cause problems and in some cases a wipe.

As one of the strongest arguers that assassins are perfectly viable tanks (and every raid group should have one), Thrasher is one fight the Juggs and PTs are just straight up better at.

Updated with my target values and BiS gear for 2.4

Values may be slightly tweaked as I gather more data from fights in the next few weeks.

Updated with my target values and BiS gear for 2.4

 

Values may be slightly tweaked as I gather more data from fights in the next few weeks.

I see you choose the 34b mods again. Do you think this will change after the 2.5 class changes. I've got a mix of 34b's and 31U-L. (best i can get atm)

I see you choose the 34b mods again. Do you think this will change after the 2.5 class changes. I've got a mix of 34b's and 31U-L. (best i can get atm)

From the information we've seen I don't plan to change anything.

I generally prefer 34B Mods regardless of spikiness. I use 34B for my Assassin and Powertech, and 34 Mods for my Juggernaut due to increased sonic barrier from strength and less endurance benefit.

There may be a viable hybrid tank spec after 2.5 but will have to test it to find out.

From the information we've seen I don't plan to change anything.

 

I generally prefer 34B Mods regardless of spikiness. I use 34B for my Assassin and Powertech, and 34 Mods for my Juggernaut due to increased sonic barrier from strength and less endurance benefit.

 

There may be a viable hybrid tank spec after 2.5 but will have to test it to find out.

I like how easy the b mods are to get. Does the other sin you run with follow this setup or do they gear diffrently?

I like how easy the b mods are to get.

Me too, it's a nice break from 75 gear where it was near impossible.

Does the other sin you run with follow this setup or do they gear diffrently?

I believe he gears the same as me.

I've directed this question to your thread Fuyri:

I have a question about your ideal tanking stats. They seem a bit off to me. The linked askmrrobot profile includes significant use of the B mods (high endurance) which have never really won out over the high mitigation mods in terms of tank survivability. Based on KBN’s and Dipstik’s spreadsheets for both HM DF and DP, I would think an idealized (averaged) stat distribution given that you’ve got all datacrons would be something along the lines of this AMR profile.

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/701fc529-8a96-4790-a219-eb88789498df

 

The big difference is the lack of high endurance mods entirely allowing for a bit more defense (or if you prefer to move an augment or two, absorb) to be stacked. So, we would have 3902 Endurance, 607 Defense, 940 Shield (what you get from full DF gear), and 1172 Absorb. I would imagine this would give a much smoother DTPS profile while the 43k health pool would be more than enough to handle spike damage in current content.

There's two points of contention here, if 34 Mods or 34B Mods are better and what your target stat values should be.

34 or 34B Mods:

Target Stat Values:

coming back after a year and trying to rebuild my stats right now im only 53 but this may make me look like a dumb *** but can I please get soft caps and the percentage breakdown for my defense stats?

You can see all the 2.0 stat formulae here

The graphs for shield, absorb and defence are on my spreadsheet here

In terms of gearing for tanks it's more about balance between def and absorb rather than hard and soft caps.

As a general rule keep your Defence:Absorb rating ratio at around 1:2 and shield at whatever value you're given (no shield augments). You can often stray from this ratio as in most cases more stat points are better than less.

It only becomes worth looking at min/maxing (beyond following the above rule) when you're almost in full top tier gear and you shouldn't worry too much about it until that point.

I have a question...

Well, its more a complete and utter confusion cause I do not understand the level of mathematics involved.

So my question is very simple, is there some form of dumbed down way to explain why the Reactive Warding relic is so... amazing? Or if anything confirm that what I am about to say is semi-accurate or completely accurate because this is why I think it is considered BiS;

RW relic procs every 40 seconds, and takes the 100% guaranteed 1360 damage off of the incoming attacks. Thus it is better then the Absorb Proc relic because with that relic you need to actually shield something which with my SIn's current gear using DW is a 57% chance of happening. So there sits a 43% chance that for the 6 second duration of the relic, it will do no good whatsoever to lower my incoming damage if I do not shield anything vs the 1360 damage that will be removed from the RW proc.

Anyone can answer by the by, does not have to be Furyi as long as they have some understanding of this. Because previous times I've asked about it I just seem to get told "RW is BiS" without any form of explanation really as to why...

I have a question...

Well, its more a complete and utter confusion cause I do not understand the level of mathematics involved.

 

So my question is very simple, is there some form of dumbed down way to explain why the Reactive Warding relic is so... amazing? Or if anything confirm that what I am about to say is semi-accurate or completely accurate because this is why I think it is considered BiS;

 

RW relic procs every 40 seconds, and takes the 100% guaranteed 1360 damage off of the incoming attacks. Thus it is better then the Absorb Proc relic because with that relic you need to actually shield something which with my SIn's current gear using DW is a 57% chance of happening. So there sits a 43% chance that for the 6 second duration of the relic, it will do no good whatsoever to lower my incoming damage if I do not shield anything vs the 1360 damage that will be removed from the RW proc.

 

 

Anyone can answer by the by, does not have to be Furyi as long as they have some understanding of this. Because previous times I've asked about it I just seem to get told "RW is BiS" without any form of explanation really as to why...

From the looks of what you wrote....you pretty much got the right idea. A guaranteed reduction over a chance based percentage. At this point all you would have to do is insert the brain melting mathematics to show the extent of how much benefit RW gives over SA . Unfortunately I don't have the time nor money to spend a few semesters at MIT to be able to show said math.

I'll put together a page on my tanking spreadsheet showing all the maths behind when i get some free time.

For a brief explanation the proc relics' worth is calculated by the damage mitigated by the increased defense stat based off dtps values for current content. Then multiplied by the % uptime to get an average damage mitigated per second. If this higher than the reactive warding's value / proc time then it's better, if it's lower it's worse.