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Jedi Guardian Changes - Game Update 2.5

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
Jedi Guardian Changes - Game Update 2.5
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JefferyClark's Avatar


JefferyClark
10.29.2013 , 09:32 PM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by AndrewanCyabos View Post
Well here's what you have:

Guardian's Favor - The Guardian Focuses the Force on one target Player, increasing all damage and healing be 3%, while also reducing all damage taken and healing received by 3% for both the Guardian and his ally. Range is 30 yards, only one player may have Guardian's Favor on at any given time.

Battle Mediation - All party members within the Shadow gain 5% increase to all damage and healing done and reducing threat by a moderate amount at all times. The Shadow using Battle Meditation also receives this ability increase.


Lets spin it a different way. My thinking on this is if you give these two classes basically the same utility only one operates much better than the other (As I believe this system would) you still create an area that pushes to exclude one. (In the scenario I see here, the optimal MDPS setup with current mechanics would be a sentinel and a shadow. Sent for massive MDPS and Insp, plus Shadow for a smaller inspiration that is always active. You also get a stealth rez, great on call burst and a emergency tank.) So, lets change it a bit, if that's alright to be more slightly more favoring to the guardian counterpart so that these two buffs become interchangeable. Here's my version:

Battle Meld(This talent should be trainable at level 22 when you can unlock Shien Form but only lock this ability out when using Soresu Form, the same way Guard is locked to Soresu Form)- (Thank you previous poster for the name update, I do believe this one works better.)-The Guardian Focuses the Force on one target Player, increasing all damage and healing by 5%, while also reducing all damage taken and threat by 5% for both the Guardian and his ally. Range is 20 yards, only one player may have Guardian's Favor on at any given time.(This way it makes a lot of sense to pair your Guardian DPS with his MDPS counterpart, regardless of what class they are, so in the most common scenario of a Sentinel and Guardian pounding their enemies both players would be able to push their DPS harder. And considering in this scenario both of these players would have Guard from the tanks this virtually guarantees that these DPS will not pull Aggro. However on battles like Op IX where it is more beneficial to give Guard to healers, the tanks don't have to worry as much about swapping guards back to DPS after the phase change.)

Battle Mediation - All party members within the Shadow's team gain 3% increase to all damage and healing done. The Shadow using Battle Meditation also receives this ability increase.(Dropping this to 3% in lieu of the fact it affects everyone. You also would not want to have a agro drop mechanic tied to this for the same reason, you don't want anything hampering the threat generation of your tanks. Because of this, I could easily see this as a replacement for the Shadows Shelter talent in the Tanking Tree. This could easily be done by adding a talent at the bottom of the middle tree (Infiltration) similar to Guardians Single Saber Mastery, that way the ability "Phase Walk" does different things based on which stance the shadow is in. Perhaps Double-bladed Saber Mastery?) With the problems Shadow Tanks have had with their current setup and the fixes coming in 2.5 this could easily push them back to tanking kings. I say this to encourage class diversity in raid groups.)
Why are we giving a Shadow even more raid/group utility? They already have so much it isn't even funny. Not to mention that you'll drop Guardian tanks from pvp in favor of Shadow tanks and dps in tank gear who provide the extra 3% and basically eliminate the purpose of giving dps Guardians this ability in the first place, which is to boost our utility and dps to be closer to the other dps classes.

This is the Guardian forum, we're not looking to discuss Shadows here. If you want to talk about that, take it to that forum.
Jeffinas (Guardian)
Exceptional Legion
Prophecy of the Five

Creslan's Avatar


Creslan
10.30.2013 , 12:12 AM | #122
There are alot of ideas being thrown around here, I've put several out there myself. But I think we need to agree on what the overall issues are with Vigilance and come to an agreement on how that roll is defined.

I see the Vigilance Guardian as a melee "white" damage dealing class. While our dots are force based, they are lacking in true power to be considered a dot class. Yes Our Capstone is an Elemental Attack with a dot, but that is our only 'true" dot in my opinion. A majority of our damage will be from white damage, which is defensible and mitigated by armor. Our dot's being secondary damage, is not the way to look for increased damage, even a 50% increase to our dots damage would not yield the numbers equal to a true dot class.

Instead I think we should look at our White damage attacks and look for ways to increase those by:

1.) Flat Damage Increases, either through % talents or abilities. If/then % increases in the talent trees to set up big attacks, or as mentioned in earlier posts by myself and others, an offensive guard ability with a flat damage increase.

2.) Armor Penetration- Armor pen will net the biggest gain to our white damage. I'm lost count of the times I've lamented that Shien form didn't have Shi-Cho Mastery from the focus tree. While 30% armor pen would too much, 10-15% would be in line with a good damage increase in vigilance.

My suggestions for guardian vigilance dps increase, would be a combo of the above. The Offensive guard I mentioned earlier for the flat damage increase and ops utility, and a 10-15% armor pen on our white damage attacks would be all the Tree needs in my opinion.

cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
10.30.2013 , 06:25 AM | #123
My ideas to improve PVE sustained and give some burst to PVP as well:

-get rid of the burns, all of them:
- change Burning Blade into a surge talent for BS
- chagne Burning Purpose into an armor pen talent for OS
- Plasma Brand's dot dmg moved to it's initial dmg

PS: No Vigi suggestion post can go without saying: IMPROVE ZEN STRIKE PROC CHANCE!!!
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here.

The Red Eclipse <PC Gamer Mint Imperials>
KÚja, Kejann, Aemis, KyrÝ, Kyra'h, KÚssa, Frńngit, Lamţa, Kalk´Maelin, Morwy

TonyDragonflame's Avatar


TonyDragonflame
10.30.2013 , 01:50 PM | #124
Root on master strike is a step in right direction, but its only one step for quality of playing this iconic jedi knight class.

Required changes for any spec:
* Focused defence dont required focus cost after activation
* Saber reflect (3 sec duration) need 45 s CD (and 30 s for Vigilance/Shien form)
* Jedi Knights animations of Master strike and Blade storm must be improved, remaked like jugg's Ravage etc. Atm they are looks terrible and have huge delay compared with warrior's animations

The chages for Defence spec (Soresu form):
* Increase all damage +20%, increase damage from Guardian Slash on x2 (200%).
* Blade barricade must give +20% defence instead of +5%

Changes for Vigilance (Shien form)
* All dots damage x2
* Dots slow target to -30% speed (= watchman sentinel talents)
* Saber reflect have 30 sec cd
* Force leap can be from 0-30m, with 12 sec cd (= watchman sentinel talents)

Changes for Focus (Shii-Cho form):
* Focused defence works like for Vigilance (= +15% DR)

Hell_Kaiser_Fett's Avatar


Hell_Kaiser_Fett
10.30.2013 , 02:15 PM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by TonyDragonflame View Post
Root on master strike is a step in right direction, but its only one step for quality of playing this iconic jedi knight class.

Required changes for any spec:
* Focused defence dont required focus cost after activation
* Saber reflect (3 sec duration) need 45 s CD (and 30 s for Vigilance/Shien form)
* Jedi Knights animations of Master strike and Blade storm must be improved, remaked like jugg's Ravage etc. Atm they are looks terrible and have huge delay compared with warrior's animations

The chages for Defence spec (Soresu form):
* Increase all damage +20%, increase damage from Guardian Slash on x2 (200%).
* Blade barricade must give +20% defence instead of +5%

Changes for Vigilance (Shien form)
* All dots damage x2
* Dots slow target to -30% speed (= watchman sentinel talents)
* Saber reflect have 30 sec cd
* Force leap can be from 0-30m, with 12 sec cd (= watchman sentinel talents)

Changes for Focus (Shii-Cho form):
* Focused defence works like for Vigilance (= +15% DR)
I like the changes you've suggested, but would they form specific, such as would you still get the Blade Barricade buff in Shien, or are they just tree specific?
"You are now an official member of the Fett Lineage." - Temuera Morrison at ConNooga March 2, 2013

cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
10.30.2013 , 03:06 PM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by TonyDragonflame View Post
Root on master strike is a step in right direction, but its only one step for quality of playing this iconic jedi knight class.

Required changes for any spec:
* Focused defence dont required focus cost after activation
* Saber reflect (3 sec duration) need 45 s CD (and 30 s for Vigilance/Shien form)
* Jedi Knights animations of Master strike and Blade storm must be improved, remaked like jugg's Ravage etc. Atm they are looks terrible and have huge delay compared with warrior's animations

The chages for Defence spec (Soresu form):
* Increase all damage +20%, increase damage from Guardian Slash on x2 (200%).
* Blade barricade must give +20% defence instead of +5%

Changes for Vigilance (Shien form)
* All dots damage x2
* Dots slow target to -30% speed (= watchman sentinel talents)
* Saber reflect have 30 sec cd
* Force leap can be from 0-30m, with 12 sec cd (= watchman sentinel talents)

Changes for Focus (Shii-Cho form):
* Focused defence works like for Vigilance (= +15% DR)
Suggestions like these reminds me how little some people know about balance
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here.

The Red Eclipse <PC Gamer Mint Imperials>
KÚja, Kejann, Aemis, KyrÝ, Kyra'h, KÚssa, Frńngit, Lamţa, Kalk´Maelin, Morwy

Hell_Kaiser_Fett's Avatar


Hell_Kaiser_Fett
10.30.2013 , 03:41 PM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by cs_zoltan View Post
Suggestions like these reminds me how little some people know about balance
Doesn't mean they wouldn't be nice.
"You are now an official member of the Fett Lineage." - Temuera Morrison at ConNooga March 2, 2013

TonyDragonflame's Avatar


TonyDragonflame
10.30.2013 , 03:42 PM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by cs_zoltan View Post
Suggestions like these reminds me how little some people know about balance
Dude, I play all 8 classes in pvp, have summary valor more than 550 on all chars so your comment just show me how many selfish carebears writing on forums without any sense of balance.

With all my suggestions, guardians tanks will be compared with 2.5 shadow tanks and vanguards hybrids; and dps guardians stop being "poor man sentinels" and became good but not OP.

cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
10.30.2013 , 06:49 PM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by TonyDragonflame View Post
Dude, I play all 8 classes in pvp, have summary valor more than 550 on all chars
So what? who doesn't...That doesn't mean your suggestions are any less pathetic.

Quote: Originally Posted by TonyDragonflame View Post
so your comment just show me how many selfish carebears writing on forums without any sense of balance.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Guardian tanks don't need more defense, they need more shield and absorb. Think before you make up stupid ideas.

Quote: Originally Posted by TonyDragonflame View Post
With all my suggestions, guardians tanks will be compared with 2.5 shadow tanks and vanguards hybrids;
no, they won't

Quote: Originally Posted by TonyDragonflame View Post
and dps guardians stop being "poor man sentinels" and became good but not OP.
again no, they will be a poor man's watchman sentinel. With your Vigi changes you make them a copy+paste class of watchman
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here.

The Red Eclipse <PC Gamer Mint Imperials>
KÚja, Kejann, Aemis, KyrÝ, Kyra'h, KÚssa, Frńngit, Lamţa, Kalk´Maelin, Morwy

JonnyMadDog's Avatar


JonnyMadDog
10.30.2013 , 09:53 PM | #130
Keep up the feedback.

Would like to add/reiterate mey offensive guard idea...

One way, of course, is to make it so r spec can allow another membr's dmg/healing to go up, not just done, but healing received as well, in case of a dire emergency a tnk could drop their grd on them (if that membr is grded by the tnk and is still going dwn, such as for a brn phase maybe, or if the tnk grding goes dwn), so not just, in terms of visualizing this, the o-grded membr is able to do more, unnoticed, but can have more good done to em as well. The o-grdER may have increased threat as the tradeoff, another thing, in case one hasn't figured it out from mey idea already, is that if a persn is d-grded by a tnker, they can't be o-grded at the same time, as that'd be OP.

Also, am a fan of the mastr strik animat-speed fix/change and range of it (know root fixes it but only to a degree) would like it so all non-platnum/chmpion p v E enemies r rooted as well but if stunned/knockd back, then what? Not to allow it to continue when done so, as that'd be OP and diminish value/purpose of said knockbacks, but MAYBE allowing mastr strik to be channelable WHILE MOVING would be cool as well, just an idea.

Also, am a fan of the 0-30 (like how sabr throw can be set-bonSed into doign this) range on forc leap, it's feasible, why is it restrictd to a far away range? Peopl can pretend to leap or leap a short distanc in a battle as well, so that'd be a cool thign to do.

Yeah r build is the 'whit' dmg primary 1 brn/fyr elementl DoT plus armor breakr secondary as deeps purposes build in this gam, ey'd and many others feel ALL needs to be buffd not just one typ ovr the other, like ONLY an increase to whit dmg nothin w/ brns or anything, or vice versa, but both need improvements/more.