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How about some Operation bosses that pull people out of cover?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
How about some Operation bosses that pull people out of cover?

Ardarell_Solo's Avatar


Ardarell_Solo
10.23.2013 , 02:46 AM | #11
I think it's no surprise this argument has heated up since Slinger DPS has gone through the roof after 2.0. The deal used to be (and should be, imo): Melee DPS are more risky to bring along (require more positionig skill and survivability awareness) but pull higher numbers. Ranged are the safe option but don't hit that hard.

It's extremely difficult to favour melee DPS via fight mechanics, although devs are clearly improving here. I do think melee and ranged DPS should be balanced via potential damage output primarily.

As to balance among different ranged DPS classes: I think we all agree devs have gone too far with Slingers/Snipers, as they have already stated themselves.

I've been switching mains between my Sent and my (Hybrid)Slinger back and forth since 1.2., but I have a slight preference for my Sent, as playing him is simply a bit more fun to me. For pure effectiveness in progress raiding. I'd have to main my Slinger atm, though...
El'ethon (Sentinel) | Rickmyron (Gunslinger) | Alreegan (Sage)
Craeg (Scoundrel) | Dacs (Commando) | Vayus (Guardian)
<Taking the Jawas to Alderaan> rDD gesucht: -> hier klicken
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countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
10.23.2013 , 01:30 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Bioware is doing a bit better at improving the situation for melee vs ranged. Still not great, but at least Titan VI is no longer current content…
  • Nefra: no one cares, but ranged slightly preferred since it avoids red circling the tanks (slight advantage ranged)
  • Draxus: melee have shorter interrupts and no Bulwark issues, but they also take longer to get in position (balanced)
  • Grob'thok: melee are essentially unaffected by the frequent knock-up or the movement; slightly penalized due to cheetos-related downtime (melee)
  • Corrupter Zero: grav vortex sucks, and add uptime is hard as melee. conversely, who wants an explody mine thingy? mostly, this comes down to most melee lacking AoE (slight advantage ranged)
  • Brontes: melee have better defensive CDs, but uptime and target swapping is a massive pain (advantage ranged)
  • Bestia: no one cares, but ranged slightly preferred due to target swapping on the tentacles and avoiding their slap attack (slight advantage ranged)
  • Tyrans: you want an even balance here to avoid chewing up squares at too high a rate in one group or another (balanced, but only with good tanks)
  • Calphayus: no one cares. at all. (balanced)
  • Raptus: biconal sucks for melee, and bad tanks can make this fight completely unbearable (advantage ranged)
  • Dread Masters: you almost need a melee for Calphayus, and it helps a ton on Raptus as well. two melee, ideally with strong AoE options, are strongly encouraged by the fight design (perfectly balanced)

Of the current content, the Dread Masters are probably the best balanced for melee vs ranged. Of the rest, most fights are slightly or strongly favoring ranged. Still, it's better than S&V or TfB, both of which 100% favor ranged.
Where's your math to back all of this up

Nefra- doesn't matter, having at least 1 ranged to pull aggro on the non-tank adds helps, preferably a Sorc/Sage
Draxus- if you're taking that long to kill the Corruptors where multiple adds are getting multiple casts off, your group sucks and it doesn't matter what the comp is.
Grob- doesn't matter, all DPS and all heals are screwed by the interrupt. If anything no melee wins because of the magnet.
Zero- if anything, melee wins because you don't need to track mine.
Brontes- fingers are a joke post nerf, and nothing new as far as melee goes here. Be good and have a gap closer up at all times or be bad and be bad.
Bestia- comp does not matter
Tyrans- anything other than 3+ melee doesn't matter
Calph- doesn't matter
Raptus- doesn't matter, if you can't avoid cleaves, you're a bad melee
Council- if anything, you only want 1 melee. Raptus should be kited by a ranged, very few groups will have the heals required to facetank Raptus. I know, I've done it. Out of the top 10 kills, we were the only ones to facetank him and now that we're back to our 1 melee 3 ranged normal comp, we don't do it anymore.

It seems we disagree on almost everything anywhere. Thing is, all of our players disagree with 90% of what you've said here. Sounds like you just need to play with a better caliber of gamers?
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.23.2013 , 02:06 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
Where's your math to back all of this up
I don't even know where to go with that. Whatever.

Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
Nefra- doesn't matter, having at least 1 ranged to pull aggro on the non-tank adds helps, preferably a Sorc/Sage
We've never bothered doing anything with the adds whatsoever. Even for tanks, they're easy to move out of. It's simply easier for positioning if the tanks don't have to move. I'm still fairly certain that this fight can be three-manned in HM, so it's not like it matters.

Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
Draxus- if you're taking that long to kill the Corruptors where multiple adds are getting multiple casts off, your group sucks and it doesn't matter what the comp is.
In the quadruple corrupter spawn, you're going to get two casts from at least two corrupters. It's not at all hard to lock them down with coordination and healers who aren't AFK, but you're still going to get multiple casts.

Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
Grob- doesn't matter, all DPS and all heals are screwed by the interrupt. If anything no melee wins because of the magnet.
You need better tanks. The magnet is completely ignorable for the melee if the boss is correctly positioned. The ranged actually have a slightly harder time of it, since it's very tempting to just plop down wherever and turret the boss. Not that it's difficult to move out of the way of the magnet track, but still.

My point stands about the knock-up. Melee don't care; ranged get interrupted out the wazoo without Entrench or Hydraulic Overrides.

Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
Zero- if anything, melee wins because you don't need to track mine.
If you have reasonable AoE and rapid mobility on your melee, then yes. I wouldn't bring four Infiltration Shadows or Scrapper Scoundrels though. I don't think either melee or ranged are punished particularly heavily on this fight.

Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
Brontes- fingers are a joke post nerf, and nothing new as far as melee goes here. Be good and have a gap closer up at all times or be bad and be bad.
Not all melee DPS have a gap closer, as you should be well aware. And the fingers aren't a joke, they're just easier than they used to be. Healers still have to work pretty hard to keep up with the damage. Defensive CDs are still a point worth considering. What was it you were saying about Sorc DPS taking too much damage?

Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
Bestia- comp does not matter
I listed exactly why comp matters for this fight. I wouldn't have a problem doing it with four melee, but people should be aware of the disadvantages and advantages.

Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
Tyrans- anything other than 3+ melee doesn't matter
I don't like running it with four ranged either, for exactly the same reason.

Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
Calph- doesn't matter
Exactly. Just don't bring four DPS with extremely high setup times and you'll be fine, but that says nothing about melee vs ranged.

Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
Raptus- doesn't matter, if you can't avoid cleaves, you're a bad melee
It's not the cleave, it's the AoE circle. Obviously it's avoidable, but ranged simply don't have to worry about it. Just because a mechanic can be handled doesn't mean it's not a disadvantage.

Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
Council- if anything, you only want 1 melee. Raptus should be kited by a ranged, very few groups will have the heals required to facetank Raptus. I know, I've done it. Out of the top 10 kills, we were the only ones to facetank him and now that we're back to our 1 melee 3 ranged normal comp, we don't do it anymore.
We were facetanking Raptus (with a ranged DPS, no less) and were able to clear the phase with that strategy, but we ultimately decided that it was a little more controlled to kite him, and it does make the healing easier.

Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
It seems we disagree on almost everything anywhere. Thing is, all of our players disagree with 90% of what you've said here. Sounds like you just need to play with a better caliber of gamers?
The people I'm playing with are fine. Sounds like you need to just make fewer assumptions? I was simply listing mechanics that penalize one DPS archetype or another. I'm not saying that I do or don't have trouble handling some or any of them. If you can't have a rational discussion without turning it into a slingfest of petty insults and judgmental behavior, then we're just going to keep bumping heads on everything anywhere.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
10.23.2013 , 09:23 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
We've never bothered doing anything with the adds whatsoever. Even for tanks, they're easy to move out of. It's simply easier for positioning if the tanks don't have to move. I'm still fairly certain that this fight can be three-manned in HM, so it's not like it matters.

In the quadruple corrupter spawn, you're going to get two casts from at least two corrupters. It's not at all hard to lock them down with coordination and healers who aren't AFK, but you're still going to get multiple casts.

You need better tanks. The magnet is completely ignorable for the melee if the boss is correctly positioned. The ranged actually have a slightly harder time of it, since it's very tempting to just plop down wherever and turret the boss. Not that it's difficult to move out of the way of the magnet track, but still.

Not all melee DPS have a gap closer, as you should be well aware. And the fingers aren't a joke, they're just easier than they used to be. Healers still have to work pretty hard to keep up with the damage. Defensive CDs are still a point worth considering. What was it you were saying about Sorc DPS taking too much damage?

The people I'm playing with are fine. Sounds like you need to just make fewer assumptions? I was simply listing mechanics that penalize one DPS archetype or another. I'm not saying that I do or don't have trouble handling some or any of them. If you can't have a rational discussion without turning it into a slingfest of petty insults and judgmental behavior, then we're just going to keep bumping heads on everything anywhere.
Let's argue some more.

I'm sure it can be 5manned, not 3. Damage is signif enough where you need two tanks and 2 heals. Also, dunno if one DPS is gonna get it done, this boss does in fact have an enrage timer. We just 3 DPS'd 16man HM though, which is totally laughable fight design. World first 8man kill FTW.

It's not hard to lock them down by killing one on each side before the second cast even starts, then it's single mob interrupts and if the group can't handle that between 4, they don't really have any business being in HM to begin with. EZ mode fight.

Multiple melee = more mining droids in melee on the boss = more moving out of melee range = ranged fight. We have 3 of the best tanks in the game running for our main group, when I say that I mean bads who aren't raid aware. We troll the magnet and Sorc pull people into it, but I'm assuming we're discussing average Joe raider here who probably isn't exactly heads up.

The fingers are a joke. You can't say they aren't, if the group is having issues with the fingers, then it is a poorly geared/bad group. We push after the second clone in our main group, just after the third in our Pub raids and we have absolutely no issues with this fight post nerf. If the group has healing issues, the DPS sucks and it's a miracle they got past the Overcharge Beam first two adds. WTB the old fingers phase back. Now even our Sorc can facetank the fingerbang phase. Straight EZ mode.

There is nothing in any of these fights that gives a disadvantage to ranged/melee other than Tyrans, and with good tanks and a proper strategy, that has even become fairly lawlstomp EZ mode with 3 melee. Granted we're elite players and others will have issues with this, it doesn't change the fact that only 1 out of 10 fights actually matters as far as group comp goes. Compare this with Fabricator, Z/T, Olok, or Styrak and I think they've made significant improvements to fights that don't respond to group comp. Anything other issues with any Dread fight that comes down to a ranged/melee bias is completely on the individual player skill level, they have nothing to do with whether the fight favors or doesn't. All of my points are valid, well founded and honestly not contestable, you're the one who brings personal beliefs into a logic battle. I play with one of the top groups in this game 2 nights a week (down to 1 since we cleared both instances in 2 hours tonight), we run multiple alt raids a week on characters we honestly aren't top notch at, and I run with a random roster group that sometimes doesn't have the best players. None of these have issues killing anything other than Council, and that's more because we don't have the patience to teach anyone else the fight yet.
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

Ardarell_Solo's Avatar


Ardarell_Solo
10.24.2013 , 03:18 AM | #15
Well, if you're an elite player, you can, of course, overcome any difficulty (hence the term "elite" ;-) Nobody was saying fights are impossible with melees: Many are just easier with more ranged dps, assuming that the available dps to compose your raid group of are equally skilled (and maybe not elite).

I'm not sure, if the fact that elite melee dps can outskill the challenges implemented by the devs means that the fights are actually well balanced for melee vs. ranged from a broader perspective...

In the end, L2P can be applied to almost anything discussed in the forums, but it's pretty much a killer phrase imho. Discussions rarely profit from it on a factual level, as seems to be the case here.
El'ethon (Sentinel) | Rickmyron (Gunslinger) | Alreegan (Sage)
Craeg (Scoundrel) | Dacs (Commando) | Vayus (Guardian)
<Taking the Jawas to Alderaan> rDD gesucht: -> hier klicken
T3-M4

countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
10.24.2013 , 08:48 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Ardarell_Solo View Post
Well, if you're an elite player, you can, of course, overcome any difficulty (hence the term "elite" ;-) Nobody was saying fights are impossible with melees: Many are just easier with more ranged dps, assuming that the available dps to compose your raid group of are equally skilled (and maybe not elite).

I'm not sure, if the fact that elite melee dps can outskill the challenges implemented by the devs means that the fights are actually well balanced for melee vs. ranged from a broader perspective...

In the end, L2P can be applied to almost anything discussed in the forums, but it's pretty much a killer phrase imho. Discussions rarely profit from it on a factual level, as seems to be the case here.
Some refuse to see anything but their own point of view, even when confronted with overwhelming/incontestable evidence to the contrary. I admit when a fight has a ranged bias even for high end players, NiM Dread Guards prenerf was highly taxing on me and the more melee you added the worse it got. Tyrans is definitely a ranged fight, the only mechanic that really wipes groups is a rogue Thundering Blast. There isn't another fight where I say "Dayum, I should bring my Snipes to this one, Marauder is hurting the group". The point being is that I don't know if Keyboardninja actually understands the fights like he thinks because he's missing a few key mechanics, intended or not, that can favor one side. I could tell him to l2p, but it's such an easy route out. Last lockout was the first week we really understood each fight, this stuff is so ez mode that we lawled through everything except pre-nerf Brontes and Council, ignoring mechanics until we took our off-off-alts and started wiping. People don't argue to learn, they argue to be right. Hopefully someone reading takes something new out of the banter and applies it in game,
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

ceazare's Avatar


ceazare
10.24.2013 , 09:11 AM | #17
Feel free to share these key mechanics that hurt melee so much.
Pelara <Titans>
The Red Eclipse