If Vengence gets Overwhelm, then Carnage should get Unstoppable, its only fair right?

How about you stop making bad melee DPS players an example of how good you yourself or your class may be. If you have to kite with a class that has channelled/casted abilities (like Commando), you are losing DPS. Losing DPS means you are not a very good DPS. You're better off playing a VG Tactics, kiting the Vengeance jugg, while maintaining 100% of your DPS.

Also, how many successful arena teams are there with a ranged DPS?

How many use Melee?

Yeah, you can maybe hard counter 2 smash with 2 lightning sorcs, but get beaten by every team that uses a VG DPS, because they can just burst the bubble from range. What can you hard counter with 2 Commandos/Mercs?

And, if you were talking about normal warzones, then that's totally different.


Something for you to think about:

The more players there are against each other (4v4->8v8->16v16? and so on), the more effective range becomes.

Why?

Because ten ranged casters can all focus one target in 30m area, and swap to any target instantly without requiring movement inside that area.

Melee cannot. Melee can't focus another target after having used a gap closer.

So, ranged are better off in 8v8 than in 4v4, and since there's still 8v8 in the game, ranged will never have place in 4v4 arenas, because that would make them overpowered in 8v8.

Now, snipers are a slight exception to this rule, as they have cover. They have the best of both worlds. The range, and the ability to keep DPS in melee range as well. Not to mention the mobility due to the roll.

I wanted it and it was suggested on the boards a few weeks ago. There have even been balance "experts" on vengeance claiming that vengeance always had it (who had to be corrected).

It's not a "bad idea" for juggs, it just isn't going to make much difference outside of duels with classes that don't already have 6+ cc-based interrupts/min (sins get 8 not counting stealth, cc-break and maybe resilience).

this, nice said ...

Go ahead. Take our GBTF. I'll gladly trade it for multiple 4-second stuns, and a DCD that "increases" your health as opposed to takes it away. That's a fair trade I suppose?

You'll have to give up an entire talent tree for "multiple 4-second stuns". Enure for Camo? Any day... Oh, wait, I'm a Carnage Marauder, as well. Screw you, guys, I'm going home.

A melee that's being kited, or peeled, does almost no damage, as well. I find myself doing enough damage on a Gunner 1v1, thanks to cannon slap root+KB, root+HTL, root+Electronet (although, in Arena, we use that as an offensive, not a defensive cooldown, for obvious reasons), 2x TOs.

And I'm not even talking about Pyro, because it does a considerable damage without having to stop to cast at all, but we don't use that, due to excessive utility of Gunnery and its enhanced survivability, as well as, obviously, better burst.
Valid concern, if a little isolated from certain factors. I believe that BW did think of this. There are LoS obstacles to impede ranged focus power, and there are environmental points in Arenas that are designed to keep Melee at a disadvantage. Catwalk on the space station Arena comes to mind.

In my Commando's team (my main tank Guardian's team is fairly conservative in matters of composition), we run DPS Shadow+Gunner. Suboptimal, but perfectly workable because of cross-peeling and coordinated damage spikes. We just blew up Operative healers in a couple of GCDs quite a few times.

Camo? No way, never giving that up.

And GBTF for guardians will be so OP, it completely justifies them trading off with multiple CCs.

Imagine this. 4-sec invulnerability > Lose health > Enure > Medpac

They will become a living Heal to Full meme.

Yeah, except you cannot peel a good melee DPS with ranged. There are far more gap closers than there are gap makers. A marauder/sentinel has to only close the gap with stealth, after which you cannot use your pushback (because you would be giving him leap), and you could use your HO, but then he will CC you (either choke or mezz). You could use SS to root as Arsenal, but the melee will 50% slow you, which is enough to keep you from getting far enough to heal, and using HO/Hold the Line has the problem described previously. In short: melee has the advantage, by far.

I don't find Pyro doing much more damage on the move. After the DoT nerf, the damage on the move was greatly reduced. While TD will hit a bit more, the DoT will be cleansed. Like everything else. You also have to stop to proc your Rail either with Unload (a little bit better as you don't have to finish the cast), or Power Shot. Also, compared to Arsenal, Pyro really doesn't come close (Arsenal root, better heat management, no dots = mezz, better HO, better shield, better burst, can absorb a big hitter, can cast 2 instants, the list goes on and on)

That sounds plausible. Yet, it still requires much much more compared to running a melee comp.

It will be fair when master strike becomes the main means for burst in the combat spec, among other things. This solution ignores the greatest issue with vig/veng -- ms/ravage is the most important damaging ability and 50% of its damage is at the end of a near 3 second channel falling outside the unremitting window.

Yeah, well, that's why you've got your homies, right? Besides, Commando is pretty tanky as Gunner. I tank them just enough to carry the fight to a position where we can execute an efficient peel combos (to the end result of tossing the f-ers off a ledge, while their jump has been burned, or making them chase, their healer often falling behind a bit, allowing opportunities for tactical switches, etc - options are pretty good).

You're right - FOTM compositions have to sweat a bit less for the same results, but I don't really mind playing "hard mode".

Fixed your post