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Ideal Tank Stat Distribution in 2.0

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles > Tanking
Ideal Tank Stat Distribution in 2.0

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
10.17.2013 , 11:15 AM | #891
I am a bit confused, did 2.0 do away with unmittigable damage apart from insta kills (both 0 and 5m damage)? Essentially is F/E I/E caught by shield but ignores armour?
The Last Centurions Derpyn - Sage / Toughen - Vanguard / Bluffin - Scoundrel / Roughen - Sentinel
Filthy-rich - Juggernaut / Timberwulf - Sniper / Ironwill - Mercenary / Ahuizotl - Assassin

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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.17.2013 , 11:52 AM | #892
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Dreselus View Post
I am a bit confused, did 2.0 do away with unmittigable damage apart from insta kills (both 0 and 5m damage)? Essentially is F/E I/E caught by shield but ignores armour?
F/T+I/E still bypasses shield. Basically, anything that can be mitigated by armor can also be mitigated by shield. However, it would be inaccurate to say that F/T+I/E is unmitigable. Internal Resist acts like armor except for I/E damage, so that's a significant reduction (for shadows: 28% now, and 32% in 2.5). Resist is a bit like defense for F/T damage, and typically has a very low percentage (4% for shadows, 5% for guardians, etc).
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Powerrmongerr's Avatar


Powerrmongerr
10.17.2013 , 02:20 PM | #893
Quote:
Dread Fortress

Shadow (pre-2.5): 64.9389%
Shadow (post-2.5): 65.5030%
Guardian: 61.2776%
Vanguard: 64.3790

Dread Palace

Shadow (pre-2.5): 59.7311%
Shadow (post-2.5): 58.5741%
Guardian: 54.0479%
Vanguard: 56.7490%

Shadows are gonna be pretty OP post-2.5. I'm just sayin'. :-) Guardians are in dire need of a buff. Their suite of cooldowns (which are by far the best of all three tanks) do not make up for the fact that they take dramatically more damage on average. Obviously, these numbers don't consider the issue of spikiness, but the fact remains that shadows require quite a bit less healing than either of the other tanks, even post-2.5 (when the spikiness issue is fixed).
This looks horrible. Quick question: are procs taken into account when figuring out squishiness/survivability? I would assume so ... but even if it doesn't, I'm not so sure that juggernaut procs are better than the asstank procs.

Some ideas that would quickly help things: remove the threat penalty on enraged defense for juggernauts, and/or increase the effect of the shield specialization skill so that it buffs shielding and absorb by more reasonable amounts, and/or greatly increase the effect of the armor buff skill (forge the name) in the tanking tree. Maybe have Force Barrier scale with damage?

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.17.2013 , 03:56 PM | #894
Quote: Originally Posted by Powerrmongerr View Post
This looks horrible. Quick question: are procs taken into account when figuring out squishiness/survivability? I would assume so ... but even if it doesn't, I'm not so sure that juggernaut procs are better than the asstank procs.
You mean defensive CDs? No, it doesn't take them into account. I'd say that Jugg defensive CDs are in general better than Assassins. Saber Ward and Invincible are both higher value than the corresponding Deflection and Overcharge Saber, with slightly longer cooldowns. Endure Pain has no Assassin analogue, and it's quite a good cooldown when applied appropriately with competent healers. Saber Reflect is better than Force Shroud for the 2.0 HMs and NiMs, and slightly worse for the 2.4 HMs, but it has a longer cooldown. Overall, I'd say that Juggs have a better CD suite, but not by a huge amount.

Quote: Originally Posted by Powerrmongerr View Post
Some ideas that would quickly help things: remove the threat penalty on enraged defense for juggernauts, and/or increase the effect of the shield specialization skill so that it buffs shielding and absorb by more reasonable amounts, and/or greatly increase the effect of the armor buff skill (forge the name) in the tanking tree. Maybe have Force Barrier scale with damage?
I'd love to see a buff to the shield specialization skill. I think this would resolve the problem handily. Removing the threat loss from Enraged Defense would also be fantastic, and would represent a really nice cooldown in general and a neat skill element (sacrifice 6 rage for healing?). Sonic Barrier really should scale with damage, and this would resolve some of the issues on hard-hitting content, but that's a much larger change.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Powerrmongerr's Avatar


Powerrmongerr
10.17.2013 , 04:03 PM | #895
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
You mean defensive CDs? No, it doesn't take them into account. I'd say that Jugg defensive CDs are in general better than Assassins. Saber Ward and Invincible are both higher value than the corresponding Deflection and Overcharge Saber, with slightly longer cooldowns. Endure Pain has no Assassin analogue, and it's quite a good cooldown when applied appropriately with competent healers. Saber Reflect is better than Force Shroud for the 2.0 HMs and NiMs, and slightly worse for the 2.4 HMs, but it has a longer cooldown. Overall, I'd say that Juggs have a better CD suite, but not by a huge amount.

I'd love to see a buff to the shield specialization skill. I think this would resolve the problem handily. Removing the threat loss from Enraged Defense would also be fantastic, and would represent a really nice cooldown in general and a neat skill element (sacrifice 6 rage for healing?). Sonic Barrier really should scale with damage, and this would resolve some of the issues on hard-hitting content, but that's a much larger change.
For the first question, I'm referring to the Crushing Blow buff, Smash Debuff, Force Scream Shield, and Riposte Buff. I assume they're included as baseline mitigation .... maybe?

I don't understand why the shield specialization skill is so damned low. 2/4%? For a class that's really shield/absorb challenged?

Endure pain took a bit of a hit when the rakata medpack 15% buff vanished ... chaining those two together resulted in obscene health totals. Currently, I love it's synergy with Enraged Defense ... I just have to make sure I have both taunts available to string together, along with plenty of rage.

Removing the threat debuff from Enraged Defense and maybe decreasing its rage penalty in Soresu form would probably be enough to "fix" Juggernauts all by itself.

**I am extremely sick of hearing how overpowered Jugg cooldowns are. First, the baseline mitigation is so low we need them. Secondly, they're flashy, but not significantly better than what asstanks get.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.17.2013 , 04:17 PM | #896
Quote: Originally Posted by Powerrmongerr View Post
For the first question, I'm referring to the Crushing Blow buff, Smash Debuff, Force Scream Shield, and Riposte Buff. I assume they're included as baseline mitigation .... maybe?
Ah, yes. Those are definitely included.

Quote: Originally Posted by Powerrmongerr View Post
I don't understand why the shield specialization skill is so damned low. 2/4%? For a class that's really shield/absorb challenged?
Agreed and /signed.

Quote: Originally Posted by Powerrmongerr View Post
Removing the threat debuff from Enraged Defense and maybe decreasing its rage penalty in Soresu form would probably be enough to "fix" Juggernauts all by itself.
Maybe. I don't think that low mean mitigation should be justified (at least not entirely) by having fantastically good cooldowns. And, as you say, Juggernaut cooldowns are not so much better than Assassins that they should be as far behind as they are. Juggernaut cooldowns *are* good, and they're still the best enrage tanks by a wide margin, but they're not godlike.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Powerrmongerr's Avatar


Powerrmongerr
10.17.2013 , 04:48 PM | #897
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Juggernaut cooldowns *are* good, and they're still the best enrage tanks by a wide margin, but they're not godlike.
"Enrage tanks." I really like that. Heck, for progression content (Dread Guards, whatever the second boss in HM DF is called, and Writhing Horror come to mind) I have been planning for enrage with a specific strategy!

I am going to steal the "enrage tanks" term from you. And I am not going to give you credit.

XORDYH's Avatar


XORDYH
10.17.2013 , 04:59 PM | #898
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
The OP has been updated with the optimal ratings for Dread Fortress and Dread Palace! Also, I've adjusted some of the base scalars for different classes (especially vanguards and guardians) to reflect some of the research that was done over the summer.
I noticed that the Dread Palace calculations do not include data from the final encounter. Do you expect the results to change appreciably once that fight is accounted for?

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.17.2013 , 05:01 PM | #899
Quote: Originally Posted by XORDYH View Post
I noticed that the Dread Palace calculations do not include data from the final encounter. Do you expect the results to change appreciably once that fight is accounted for?
I don't. The abilities used in that encounter are mostly the same as what is seen through the rest of the op. Styrak's burn phase may skew things a bit more toward m/r, but not a lot. In general, I expect the damage ratios on that fight to be similar to Tyrans.

Quote: Originally Posted by Powerrmongerr View Post
"Enrage tanks." I really like that. Heck, for progression content (Dread Guards, whatever the second boss in HM DF is called, and Writhing Horror come to mind) I have been planning for enrage with a specific strategy!

I am going to steal the "enrage tanks" term from you. And I am not going to give you credit.
That's fair. :-) I didn't coin the phrase, but yeah.

My favorite tanking composition has been and still remains shadow + guardian. I really and truly feel that their weaknesses cover each other very nicely, and I like the utilities that each of them brings. That and I hate having to apply my own accuracy debuff… My opinion on this tanking combo wasn't changed when 2.0 dropped and shadows became spike-city, and it won't be changed when 2.5 drops and assassins become the god tanks. I still would rather have a shadow and a guardian than two shadows.

My fear is that not everyone feels that way. People are going to look at what tank takes the least damage overall and provides solid utility and cooldowns, and that tank is the shadow tank. I fear that the metagame is going to take this and swing completely out of proportion, and that's what I'm trying to head off.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Powerrmongerr's Avatar


Powerrmongerr
10.17.2013 , 05:25 PM | #900
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
My opinion on this tanking combo wasn't changed when 2.0 dropped and shadows became spike-city, and it won't be changed when 2.5 drops and assassins become the god tanks. I still would rather have a shadow and a guardian than two shadows.

My fear is that not everyone feels that way. People are going to look at what tank takes the least damage overall and provides solid utility and cooldowns, and that tank is the shadow tank. I fear that the metagame is going to take this and swing completely out of proportion, and that's what I'm trying to head off.
So, basically, we're back to the state of things pre 2.0 (and especially pre 1.3., when the end-game tank ratios seemed to be something like 80% assassin, 15% juggernaut, 5% powertech).