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It has come, Sniper/Slinger ORBITAL/FLYBY NERFS

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Gunslinger / Sniper
It has come, Sniper/Slinger ORBITAL/FLYBY NERFS

paowee's Avatar


paowee
09.10.2013 , 12:51 PM | #1
[PVE] OS/XS nerfs
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post

It is interesting that so many Smugglers/Imperial Agents have taken such a liking to the 2-piece Gunslinger/Sniper PvP set bonus. Due to the DPS gain, it is understandable why this is the case, but the results of this design are unintentional. We touched a little bit on this in the Gunslinger/Sniper questions, and we can go into a bit more depth since you have specifically asked about it.

Because of how our ability damage is scored, XS Freighter Flyby/Orbital Strike puts out some of the best DPS in the game Ė assuming all of its damage ticks hit a target Ė and this is without the set bonus. While we do intend for XS Freighter Flyby/Orbital Strike to be an excellent choice against three or more enemy targets in an area, the single-target effectiveness of the ability is not intended to be so good, with a possible exception for the Saboteur/Engineering Gunslinger/Sniper. But the other five Smuggler/Imperial Agent specializations are not meant to be using the ability against a single target. To address this issue, we plan to make a few changes.

First, we will be lowering the effectiveness of XS Freighter Flyby/Orbital Strike by reducing some combination of its cooldown, activation time, and energy cost. Then we will rescore the damage it does. This will allow it to be used more easily and more often, but it will deal less damage per use. We will also be swapping the 2-piece and 4-piece Gunslinger/Sniper PvP set bonuses, so that the extra tick of XS Freighter Flyby/Orbital Strike damage will be tied to four pieces, and the increased range for Distraction and Quickdraw/Takedown will be tied to two pieces. These changes should combine to bring XS Freighter Flyby/Orbital Strike closer to its intended purpose: being a marvelous multi-target ability and a less than optimal single-target ability.


http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=679060
Some thoughts:
  • If BW does it correctly they want OS/XS it to be a DPS loss when used in your single target rotation (with the exception for Engi/Saboteur). It is because of this why we will not include OS/Flyby in the comprison parses below
  • No 30% DPS talent from Lethality or any of the Lethality changes they said they plan to add in the future
  • No execute ability for MM and Hybrid
  • Will PvE Snipers still farm the 4-pc PVP bonus and play the MM and Hybrid specs the same way they do now (2.0)?

EDIT: What happens when we remove Orbital Strike from our single target rotation?

5 MIN SINGLE TARGET PARSES WITHOUT Orbital Strike

Bye Bye Bye Fly Bye - youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr86zynfCqM&t=0m39s

- Orbital in the beginning of the fight only (pre-casted)
- WEARING 4-pc PVE bonus (3 ticks of OS)
- prototype nano-infused skill stim
- no armor pen debuff
- no adrenals
- NERF aims to remove OS/XS from single target rotation. BW intended for this ability to be used when multiple targets will be hit. Not for single target DPS.
- NERF should bring our single target DPS closer to other classes. In a raid setting we will still have competitive if not superior AOE DPS (especially with the ~coming Engi buffs. BW mentioned they are planning to buff Full Lethality as well). Snipers also have great utility thanks to their gimmicky diversion, best knockback/root in the game and raid wide 20% damage reduction. [COLOR="Yellow"]

MM 36/3/7
Spoiler

1. 2771 DPS 30% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419436/tim...552/0/Overview
2. 2621 DPS 32% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419436/tim...885/0/Overview
3. 2708 DPS 29% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419436/tim...226/0/Overview
4. 2740 DPS 32% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419436/tim...560/0/Overview
5. 2701 DPS 31% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419458/tim...901/0/Overview
AVG CRIT: 30%
AVG DPS (no OS): 2708 DPS
PARSE 1 (with OS): 2872 DPS 30% Crit
DPS LOSS: 164 DPS if we stop using Orbital all together
DPS LOSS even if we use Orbital on cooldown due to removal of 2-pc PVP bonus

On the other hand, results were very interesting for the Hybrid Spec

HYBRID
Spoiler

Here we have Hybrid parses, without Orbital

1. 2843 DPS 36% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419478/tim...016/0/Overview <-high crit parse
2. 2831 DPS 38% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419478/tim...355/0/Overview <-high crit parse
3. 2820 DPS 35% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419487/tim...033/0/Overview
4. 2847 DPS 36% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419501/tim...446/0/Overview
AVG CRIT: 35%
AVG DPS: 2835 DPS
DPS GAIN: 10 DPS

Here we have Hybrid parses WITH ORBITAL, but without the 2-pc PVP bonus

1: 2823 DPS 36% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419490/tim...543/0/Overview
2: 2821 DPS 38% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419496/tim...928/0/Overview
3: 2831 DPS 33% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419502/tim...970/0/Overview
AVG CRIT: 35%
AVG DPS: 2825 DPS
Rotation: includes timing TA/AP (IM/CH) wIth Orbital Strike so that I can do Cull -> OS -> SoS -> Cull without having to do the lesser dps rotation: Cull -> OS -> RS -> RS -> Cull.

Spoiler

Last but not the least,

LETHALITY
Spoiler

1. 2875 DPS 35% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419512/tim...281/0/Overview
2. 2887 DPS 35% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419518/tim...867/0/Overview
3. 2988 DPS 34% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419527/tim...276/0/Overview
4. 2981 DPS 36% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419535/tim...929/0/Overview
AVG CRIT: 35%
AVG DPS: 2932 DPS


Summary:

MM is still up in the air. We don't know the context of BW's answer to the Scoundrel Q&A. Maybe there are changes in the MM tree but ofcourse they won't talk about that in the Scoundrel forum. My guess is that MM should still be using OS on cooldown (paired with Sniper Volley) despite any OS nerf. The alternative is just too low DPS...
MM DPS without Orbital: 2708 DPS
MM DPS with Orbital (4-pc PVE): 2872 DPS

Hybrid without Orbital looks like it does more if not the same DPS as Hybrid with Orbital but without the 2-pc PVP set bonus. Is the 2-pc PVP set bonus really this powerful? More parses from other people would be great!
HYBRID DPS without Orbital: 2835 DPS
HYBRID DPS with Orbital (4-pc PVE): 2825 AVG DPS

Before the xpac came i did notice that Lethality was doing more DPS than Hybrid if you remove Orbital Strike. Did not mind it much since ofcourse everyone was excited about the all new MM/SS and the new Engineering/Saboteur. BW was right in our QA again. Lethality IS > Hybrid but ONLY when played the way they intended it to be.
Full Lethality DPS without Orbital: 2932 DPS
Full Lethality DPS with Orbital: too tired to parse anymore lol


CONCLUSION:
Removing Orbital from the single target rotation across all specs: LETHALITY > Hybrid > Marksman
Using Orbital but without the PVP set bonus: LETHALITY > Marksman >= Hybrid
more parses from other people would be great!


Some ~math:
BEFORE
1. Nithnuro - Sniper - Marksman 36/3/7 - 3265.68
2. Evrydayimsmggln - Gunslinger - Hybrid 5/18/23 - 3238.05
4. Red'october - Gunslinger - Hybrid 5/18/23 - 3207.38
5. Alishee - Sniper - Marksman - 36/3/7 - 3192.26

ADJUSTMENTS
Spoiler
AFTER
1. Nithnuro - Sniper - Marksman 36/3/7 - 3207 DPS
2. Evrydayimsmggln - Gunslinger - Hybrid 5/18/23 - 3159 DPS
4. Red'october - Gunslinger - Hybrid 5/18/23 - 3123 DPS
5. Alishee - Sniper - Marksman - 36/3/7 - 3092 DPS


DPS LOSS from removal of 2-pc PVP set bonus (extra orbital tick)
1. 413 - 355 = 58 DPS
2. 350 - 271 = 79 DPS
4. 337 - 253 = 84 DPS
5. 398 - 298 = 100 DPS
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Ordo's Avatar


Ordo
09.10.2013 , 02:04 PM | #2
Thrasher and Dash as well were highly helped by OS/XS. T.T Guess it's time to finally hang up the hybrid then. :/ DF or SS? oh the choices the choices . . . .
It ain't about how hard ya hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. How much you can take and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done!

paowee's Avatar


paowee
09.10.2013 , 02:06 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Ordo View Post
Thrasher and Dash as well were highly helped by OS/XS. T.T
Yes. So much so that people will even bench other classes just to stack Snipers/Slingers = bad

Imo.
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oaceen's Avatar


oaceen
09.10.2013 , 02:06 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Ordo View Post
Thrasher and Dash as well were highly helped by OS/XS. T.T
i think you're misunderstanding the intent of the nerf.

it will still be very viable as an aoe skill, but not so much as a single-target (except for engineer/saboteur), which is really what they've intended all along, but obviously hasn't ever really been the case.
oaceen assault specialist / oac scrapper / oacao kinetic combatant / oacianado tactician
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paowee's Avatar


paowee
09.10.2013 , 02:11 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by oaceen View Post
i think you're misunderstanding the intent of the nerf.

it will still be very viable as an aoe skill, but not so much as a single-target (except for engineer/saboteur), which is really what they've intended all along, but obviously hasn't ever really been the case.
And it also has the (un?)intended side-effect of "forcing" OS/XS to not be used rotationally in some specs. Recall

Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
That said, we are not completely satisfied with Lethality at the moment. We specifically donít like that using Orbital Strike and Explosive Probe rotationally as a Lethality Sniper (the Hybrid spec) increases your single target damage, but thatís more of a problem with Orbital Strike and Explosive Probe than Lethality.

While all of this is less than ideal, making changes to Explosive Probe and Orbital Strike could have negative effects on the other Sniper specializations, so it isnít likely that you will see changes for this anytime soon. But we will certainly be addressing these issues at some point in the future.
I think this is it. >_<;

Lower the cooldown/energy cost/activation time of OS/XS
Lower its damage
???
DPS loss if you use it single target
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BaineOs's Avatar


BaineOs
09.10.2013 , 02:14 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by oaceen View Post
it will still be very viable as an aoe skill, but not so much as a single-target (except for engineer/saboteur), which is really what they've intended all along, but obviously hasn't ever really been the case.
So how do they nerf it for snipers without nerfing it for engineering snipers as well? We're still going to be effected by the same changes....unless they change the engineering tree to compensate.
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Engineering spec

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paowee's Avatar


paowee
09.10.2013 , 02:19 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by BaineOs View Post
So how do they nerf it for snipers without nerfing it for engineering snipers as well? We're still going to be effected by the same changes....unless they change the engineering tree to compensate.
Becauese this change MIGHT make it so that using the revamped OS/XS single target, WITHOUT the 2-pc pvp bonus as Hybrid will be a DPS loss compared to just sticking with your single target rotation..on a single target boss fight. Not sure for MM.. would need some math/parses... If you do get the extra OS/XS you'd have to sacrifice 4 PVE armorings (Mainstat loss) on top of the revamped OS/XS that they proposed.

Engineering has buffs to Orbital Strike +15% dmg +30% surge that still (possibly) makes the ~2.5 second cast worth it. They also said Engineering is FAR from how they want it to be so it's just a waiting game for us till they give us more info.
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BaineOs's Avatar


BaineOs
09.10.2013 , 02:34 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by paowee View Post
Becauese this change MIGHT make it so that using the revamped OS/XS single target, WITHOUT the 2-pc pvp bonus as Hybrid will be a DPS loss compared to just sticking with your single target rotation..on a single target boss fight. Not sure for MM.. would need some math/parses... If you do get the extra OS/XS you'd have to sacrifice 4 PVE armorings (Mainstat loss) on top of the revamped OS/XS that they proposed.

Engineering has buffs to Orbital Strike +15% dmg +30% surge that still (possibly) makes the ~2.5 second cast worth it. They also said Engineering is FAR from how they want it to be so it's just a waiting game for us till they give us more info.
I don't see how dude.
Quote:
First, we will be lowering the effectiveness of XS Freighter Flyby/Orbital Strike by reducing some combination of its cooldown, activation time, and energy cost. Then we will rescore the damage it does. This will allow it to be used more easily and more often, but it will deal less damage per use.

If they do that then it's nothing but a nerf. Now if they do changes to the engineering tree at the same time...ok that's worth waiting for more information before making a judgement but if not and we have to wait for what...2.5/2.6 to balance our tree then it's nothing but a bigger nerf for engineering snipers than marksman or lethality.

The pvp 4 piece 2 piece bonus thing sure, it should always have been the 4 pc bonus not 2pc but that's it. Why should the engineering snipers suffer just because the other specs use it in their rotations? Bearing in mind you are referring to pve I'm referring to pvp.
Es'carli D'Lakutos (Retired) - Baine Os Juros (Active)

Engineering spec

Patches 2.0 - 2.10: The Golden age of Engineering

greg_biochem's Avatar


greg_biochem
09.10.2013 , 02:35 PM | #9
Any idea when this will happen? Next expansion (3.0)?
Server: The Ebon Hawk
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paowee's Avatar


paowee
09.10.2013 , 02:37 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by greg_biochem View Post
Any idea when this will happen? Next expansion (3.0)?
I'm willing to bet. They have their hands full with Arena and the new Operations at the moment.
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