Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

2pc PVP Vindicator set bonus on Juggernaut tank

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles > Tanking
2pc PVP Vindicator set bonus on Juggernaut tank

MGNMTTRN's Avatar


MGNMTTRN
09.04.2013 , 07:02 PM | #1
I've been power leveling my Juggernaut to level 55 so I could explore a problem. Is the 2pc PVP Vindicator set bonus (+8% self-healing every time a Juggernaut uses Intercede, 20 sec cd) better than the 4pc PVE War Leader set bonus (+20% strength to Force Scream's Sonic Barrier, 12 sec cd)?

The answer I found was that yes, the 2pc Vindicator PVP set bonus gives better DTPS - HPS. I am posting this here for review by more scrutinous people, but honestly I think it's pretty intuitive: you're losing 20% of Sonic Barrier's effect and gaining significant healing.

I'm by no means certain that this is correct; I'll address some problems that I see with my own model at the bottom of this post, and I'm open to correction. If this thread exceeds 3 pages, look at my second post in this thread. I may post a table of contents of things that I felt really contributed to the discussion.

To build a model of this problem I first had to understand Sonic Barrier. I concluded that it gives 539 + force bonus * 0.7182 blockage on usage.
Spoiler


After collecting data for Sonic Barrier's behavior, I calculated my expected damage from a boss who does 4500 pre-mitigation melee kinetic damage per second. In all my calculations I calculated my mitigation pool, rounded it down to the nearest hundred, applied KBN's advised distribution, then dumped any remaining points into defense. I assumed a 25 sec effective cooldown on Intercede and a 13 sec effective cooldown on Force Scream.

Results:
  • Standard model had 1243 DTPS - HPS. This model is one where intercede is not used, Force Scream has its 20% absorption bonus, all gear is mitigation-heavy, and all armorings are level 72. EDIT: Image is slightly incorrect. I forgot to actually apply the 20% absorption bonus to Scream. Revised Scream HPS is 109.92 and revised DTPS - HPS is 1243.07
  • Taking only the 2pc Vindicator set bonus gave 1185 DTPS - HPS. The only difference between this gear loadout and the previous/standard one is two level 72 tank armorings were replaced with level 63 Vindicator armorings, and their resulting changes to armor, strength, endurance, Sonic Barrier absorption, and Intercede's HPS were applied.
  • Taking the 2pc Vindicator set bonus and changing 5 high-mitigation mods for high-endurance mods gave 1186 DTPS - HPS. I examined the results of exchanging tier 31 mitigation-heavy mods (69 str, 52 end, 57 def/abs) for endurance-heavy mods (57 str, 74 end, 46 def/abs) and as we can see, the resulting DTPS was almost identical to that gotten with a similar but mitigation-heavy loadout
  • Encouraged by the near-identical performance of endurance mods, I examined the outcome when replacing all mitigation augments with endurance augments and keeping 5 endurance mods. The result was not promising: Stacking endurance gave 1229.10 DTPS - HPS
  • And finally... remember how Assassins benefit the most from increased endurance and Juggernauts benefit the most from increased power? I simulated the results of applying 14 power augs in addition to wearing 5 endurance mods and found that I'd take 1232 DTPS - HPS

Problems and notes:
Spoiler

Hockaday's Avatar


Hockaday
09.05.2013 , 01:59 AM | #3
I think the problem isn't one of math, but one of useability. I don't remember the last time I've used intercede in PvE.

Now even if we worked it into the rotation (can be done), you have to work in positioning. Aka Frontals. You'll end up haveing to keep a dps in the cone (yes I know not all bosses have this) or turn the mob to the raid.
The Empire is not evil, and the Republic is not good...it is all a matter of opinion.
Nerf Hungering! It's too OP.=Bartle Test Results:= CE VIP
{Reward-Driven 85%} {Exploratory -60%} {Physical 32%} {Thoughtful -26%} {Social -60%} {Competitive 100%}

Snarkasms's Avatar


Snarkasms
09.05.2013 , 03:20 AM | #4
I'd have to agree - honestly, this seems like one of those situations where the math supports it, but the reality doesn't. If you're main-tanking and jumping to somebody, the boss turns with you, which is often not a great option. You could perhaps jump to the off-tank, but then you both take (probably small) incidental damage that otherwise only you would take.

Can you perhaps do a ballpark to factor that in? Given the boss will probably get anywhere from 1-3 attacks off while you get back in position, does potential cleave/AOE damage to other members of the party negate the fact that you're reducing the damage to yourself?

Elzen's Avatar


Elzen
09.05.2013 , 04:37 PM | #5
I use intercede on Styrak every time he does a force pull (which actually throws you). Given that you just spent some time in the exhaustion zone you'll be down some health so it wouldn't be 'wasted' if you will. I can see the possibility on Thrasher too when jumping down from tanking the snipers. Similarly when tanking Tu'chuk this has possibilities; though no guarantee that you'll need a heal at the time you use intercede. Other fights may have some potential as well.

I don't think these situations are enough to warrant using the vindicator set bonus but it's food for thought.
Quote: Originally Posted by Grumpftard View Post
The secret to tanking is to play like a crappy DPS. Play it like that DPS in the GF that always makes you say "*** is this guy doing?"

Helig's Avatar


Helig
09.06.2013 , 05:12 AM | #6
Intercede is very situational. Scream, you use practically on cooldown.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Wanchope's Avatar


Wanchope
09.06.2013 , 01:41 PM | #7
I go this route in PVP as a tank and have for some time now. I'm not sure it would be worth it in PVE.

MGNMTTRN's Avatar


MGNMTTRN
09.06.2013 , 03:50 PM | #8
I have parsed 3 HM FPs and got decent usage on Intercede, or ~70 to 100 HPS. I had a bad run in HM SNV and in those fights I got an effective cooldown of approximately 50 seconds, or double what I predicted. That gave 60 HPS at 34000 HP. It's still far better than the extra 20 HPS that the 4pc PVE tank set would give.

Once I can get some good full clears of HM SNV/TFB with a better co-tank I'll post full parses.

For now here are the backing logs from which I drew my HM FP data: parse one and parse two. The +8% hp from Intercede actually doesn't have an ability name recognized by Torparse, so in the "heals given" section it's just the blank line.

HBCentaurion's Avatar


HBCentaurion
09.09.2013 , 03:01 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Hockaday View Post
I think the problem isn't one of math, but one of useability. I don't remember the last time I've used intercede in PvE.
Are you doing NiM operations? I never used Intercede until I started doing NiM, and now I use Intercede quite often. Due to DPS checks and tight enrage timers, DPS tends to go all out. Since you can only guard 2 DPS in a raid group, I have to Intercede the third one to lower aggro. Another example is Kephess NiM - I force charge the orb and intercede to the one targeted by the lightning, thus getting back to Kephess faster and reducing the damage taken by the player targeted.

That said, I don't think it's viable to sacrifice the 4set PVE bonus for the PVP one.

fire-breath's Avatar


fire-breath
04.13.2014 , 03:08 AM | #10
Normally I am against necro'ing a post but in this case I make a difference.

If I understand this post correctly the 2-piece PvP setbonus was worth it in 72 gear assuming you could intercede almost off cd.
My question is, would this also be the case in 78 gear. And how much can you delay interceding to make it still worthwhile? We all know that Bladestorm can be safely used off cd while interceding sometimes needs to be delayed.

Practical use in DF / DP:
Nevra - no brainer, use it on your co-tank. Should also be possible in NiM
Draxus - maintanking draxus is tricky. You can use it but only after a surpressive fire. I don't think he has more conal AoE's?
Grobbie - Useable but needs to be delayed till after a roar. On NiM i'm not sure if you want to 'waste' your leap for it since you kinda need it for tankswapping.
Czero - Easely useable on co-tank when there are no adds
Brontes - difficult to use I fear. Only useable in phase 2 and maybe 4 (phase 4 might be to chaotic to use it off cd)

Bestia - Easely useable
Draxus - Easely useable
Calphy - Easely useable altough the debuff can be tricky since you don't want to have 2 tanks with inevitable :P
Raptus - Easely useable if your co-tank tauntfluffs with you. Else he might have issues remaining 2nd in the aggrotable
Council - Easely useable

In short I see many possibilities for interceding in DF and DP HM/NiM. Question remains ofc where the breakeven point is. Also using PvP-armorings will lower your DR by quite an amount i fear?
Hope that you can shed some light on this MGN (or anyone else )
Progression raiding toons on the big RED
Macewindy - Sab Slinger Srh - Shadow Tank
TRE PvP toon
Ishmaldo - Sage healer