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Fix broken assassins

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Fix broken assassins

MasterBLASTERpl's Avatar


MasterBLASTERpl
09.07.2013 , 10:12 AM | #81
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaerah View Post
No, it's not perception problems, it's selective tunnel visions problems.
I won't be arguing about the tank performance - this is a problem, everyone knows it. On the side note i would like to say that I don't know why a class that wears light armour get the tank role in the first place. For me there should only 2 tank classes and 2 healing classes, rest should be dd/dps.

Second - as you said deception and sins/shadows as a whole are not in the bad shape in the regs. And the regs are all that matters for BW. Let's face it - BW will never balance the classes around the ranked/hardcore pvpers, it will be always balance around the regs. It's normal thing, it's how the triple A MMO runs these days. They need to appeal to the wide range of ppl to be successful and to survive another day/month/year. This won't be achieved by doing changes because some fringe part of the community said so.

BW have their specialist, they have theirs statistic programs that are burrowing through countless statistic data everyday. So it's not like they are blind and don't know how the game runs. More - any sane person who will read the PvP board for a month will get the impression that it's not about the changes - it's about constant whining about everything. Cybertech nades - leave them alone - bad, nerf them - bad. PT/Vanguards - leave them alone - bad, "nerf" them - bad.

And the last thing - many of those issues that you are referring to will be solved by the removal of the 8/8 objective based RWZ. There won't be any 'true pvp guilds' that will say which class is good and which one is bad. Hell with the sole q and ranking system you won't even need one. You could be in the pve/social guild and still be doing rankeds like crazy, because you need only 3 more ppl to team up with and you're good to go. If you're good with the class you're rolling you will be able to play RWZ and nobody will give a damn about this.
For me the 2.4 patch for most ppl here should be treated like a kind of salvation.
Tomb of Freedon Nadd
Zmorá - sorceress Rusálka - sniper
Zorzá - sage

Savej's Avatar


Savej
09.07.2013 , 11:20 AM | #82
Quote: Originally Posted by FuriCuri View Post
And stealth cannot be an excuse to not giving sins tweaks. In pvp stealth is used mostly to get into melee range without getting hammered along the way. You know another melee class that can do the same? Yeah, warriors with charge. Their jump even allowed them to switch targets instantly (best for melee train assist) and on top of that it allows to jump on the platforms where sin should run around to get to (for example get back instantly after being pushed from the platform).

Combat stealth? Yeah, marauders got that too.

So currently stealth brings nothing to pvp table that marauders did not already. I see no excuse
for sins to not being buffed to the marauders level of survivability and burst/sustain dps.
Mara stealth != sin stealth (sin combat stealth takes you out of combat and lasts longer than 4 seconds and lets you sap). Mara charge != sin stealth (sin stealth lets you sneak to the back of a team and start hitting a healer - maras that charge to the back of an enemy team also get targeted by everyone on that team while they're getting there and they usually have a nice amount of cc waiting when they land - also, snipers and invisible targets can't be charged).

I like that you mention platforms - sins can knock anyone off of platforms. They can go invis, wait for someone or several someones to walk into position and kb. In HB, the aoe kb is far more valuable than charge most of the time. If your teammates hang out on the ledge of their pit while the ball carrier is in the pit I can't help you. In many cases, in at least half the wzs, kbs can be used for 1-shot kills. Charge isn't useless of course, but kbs + stealth + speed (and some of their dcds and the pull) make sins the best class for hb. That's not me saying they're the only useful class; chargers and scamperers are useful too, but in my experience hb has almost always been won by the team with the most sins unless it's a premade vs a non-premade.

FuriCuri's Avatar


FuriCuri
09.07.2013 , 11:47 AM | #83
If sin gets knocked out of platform in high he must go a distance to get back, while marauders can just jump back (if target is not in cover, but even then you usually have to wait a bit out of LoS for gunslinger to come out).

Next, you can't build proper melee train team with sin assisting because of usability to change focus to distant target - almost no other dps suffering from that. That alone can be a valid reason not to include assassin's in arena teams where you have to coordinate focus fire.

Next, force camouflage just enough for marauders to shake off focus and get healer a chance to heal him up. And sins force cloak usually busted a lot more frequently due to dots good opponents use on them - unless you fast enough to use blackout and it's not on CD.

Next, marauders got awesome are damage in the best burst tree (officially stated by devs). We got pathetic are. Marauders got 100% armor ignore for 4 sec on about 9 sec CD (or less, don't remember now). Of course with autocrit on main damaging ability for a given tree.
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MasterBLASTERpl's Avatar


MasterBLASTERpl
09.07.2013 , 12:38 PM | #84
Quote: Originally Posted by FuriCuri View Post
If sin gets knocked out of platform in high he must go a distance to get back, while marauders can just jump back (if target is not in cover, but even then you usually have to wait a bit out of LoS for gunslinger to come out).
It's a paper - rock - scissors thing. Still maras don't have a 2 sec 150% speed boost, mara can't go stealth, not a proper one.

Quote:
Next, you can't build proper melee train team with sin assisting because of usability to change focus to distant target - almost no other dps suffering from that. That alone can be a valid reason not to include assassin's in arena teams where you have to coordinate focus fire.
As i said - BW won't balance pvp around the hardcore players, at least not in way they want. This game will be always balance around the pug with small factor from new ranked games. This sucks, but buffing sins/shadows in the way you want it would crippled the pug games coz sins would be new FoTM and this would be a big one.
Second - BW said they will do some changes, probably nerf/buff mix bag - because the game is in the pretty balance state not a perfect one, but also not in the bad one. And this will be made after they get how arenas plays out on live servers.
So i don't understand what's the whole commotion. There will be changes, in the 2-3 months max, when the 2.5 patch hits.

Quote:
Next, force camouflage just enough for marauders to shake off focus and get healer a chance to heal him up. And sins force cloak usually busted a lot more frequently due to dots good opponents use on them - unless you fast enough to use blackout and it's not on CD.
You can't be healed while in the stealth. Maras have 4 sec one after which they are vulnerable. Sins (if there isn't any DoT on them) can stay stealth. Even if they could be healed it wouldn't be a big numbers - because it would be only 4 secs healing and no class can heal to full in 4 secs.
Tomb of Freedon Nadd
Zmorá - sorceress Rusálka - sniper
Zorzá - sage

FuriCuri's Avatar


FuriCuri
09.07.2013 , 01:09 PM | #85
Well, mara got permanent 15% speed boost (and up to 50% for whole party for a longer time).
And even for PuGs mara has easier time to switch targets or even run away with jump. But most importantly marauders can choose their targets after they engage in combat while sins usually can not (jump vs stealth in combat).

And about heal and stealth - I was talking about shaking off focus and come back to back line to heal up. Anyway, the main purpose of stealth in combat is to shake off focus. And marauders got this ability. Why the most powerful melee dps with awesome defensive CD also got combat stealth is beyond my comprehension.

I agree that game balance in good shape compared to many other MMORPG I've played, but what saddens sin community is absence needed tweaks on PTS and in test patch notes. We know that those patch notes are not final, but we also know that balance changes is not something devs do in the last round of patch development. So we're probably left without needed changes for another half year. And I know devs don't read pvp forum so it's just us arguing against each other trying to prove something that doesn't matter anyway.
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MasterBLASTERpl's Avatar


MasterBLASTERpl
09.07.2013 , 01:41 PM | #86
Quote: Originally Posted by FuriCuri View Post
And about heal and stealth - I was talking about shaking off focus and come back to back line to heal up. Anyway, the main purpose of stealth in combat is to shake off focus. And marauders got this ability. Why the most powerful melee dps with awesome defensive CD also got combat stealth is beyond my comprehension.
This! Mara stealth is just above&beyond me. This class should never get stealth.

For me there should be just one more defensive ability for sins and everything would be fine and dandy.
Tomb of Freedon Nadd
Zmorá - sorceress Rusálka - sniper
Zorzá - sage

TheCourier-'s Avatar


TheCourier-
09.07.2013 , 02:35 PM | #87
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterBLASTERpl View Post
This! Mara stealth is just above&beyond me. This class should never get stealth.

For me there should be just one more defensive ability for sins and everything would be fine and dandy.
Sentinel was given force camouflage back in beta because sentinel had almost no chance of beating a sniper.

MasterBLASTERpl's Avatar


MasterBLASTERpl
09.07.2013 , 03:47 PM | #88
Quote: Originally Posted by TheCourier- View Post
Sentinel was given force camouflage back in beta because sentinel had almost no chance of beating a sniper.
They also were given the auto-crit aoe attack back in beta coz they had almost no chance of beating a whole freaking group, and a 4 sec god mode coz they had almost no chance of beathing the whole freaking group. So we get a smashing-monkey in process that can be invisible and invincible. And we than called it 'a balance'.

I'm waiting when the Hammer of Nerf will come online, coz there is some serious s.... to hammer down.
Tomb of Freedon Nadd
Zmorá - sorceress Rusálka - sniper
Zorzá - sage

randiesel's Avatar


randiesel
09.07.2013 , 04:55 PM | #89
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterBLASTERpl View Post
They also were given the auto-crit aoe attack back in beta coz they had almost no chance of beating a whole freaking group, and a 4 sec god mode coz they had almost no chance of beathing the whole freaking group. So we get a smashing-monkey in process that can be invisible and invincible. And we than called it 'a balance'.

I'm waiting when the Hammer of Nerf will come online, coz there is some serious s.... to hammer down.
That'll never happen. The largest playerbase plays knights and warriors, so they need to be catered to. Their skill range varies, so most gravitate toward an OP auto-crit spec and would be very vocal if they didn't see big numbers at the end of every game.
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mmjarec's Avatar


mmjarec
09.13.2013 , 10:50 AM | #90
Quote: Originally Posted by HBMalachorfive View Post
Um what? So your saying my 6k+ Discharge and my 5k+ Shock isn't bursty? Oh wait I've got three stacks of Recklessness, Voltaic slash x2, Shock again.
Sins don't 'rely' on maul for burst. Yes it is a big part of their rotation but Crits on Discharge and Shock are just as nasty. Add to the fact that Maul is highly unpredictable when in comes to the RNG and you end up with a 4-5K one instead of 9k.
No its not bursty considering its not 100 percent reliable crt especially when it can b negated with a stun or blocked completely. And 11k crit on a 1 plus minute timer that isnt a guarantee is crap

Besides nobody can seem to explain why sins parse 500 dps lower than other classes? If that isnt gimp the. Idk what is but all you sins are fine people cherry pick your arguement and ignore the parses. 10k reckless crit on someone that has over 30k hp doesnt matter when all your followups out of stealth moves suck so bad omg spam voltaic for 2k crit if your lucky