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Fix broken assassins

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Fix broken assassins

Sargrith's Avatar


Sargrith
09.06.2013 , 12:43 PM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaerah View Post
That'd be fine in GW2, in WoW and even in Warhammer Online.
In GW2 we have vast "outdoor" areas where a "rogue" can indeed do what you say on the unsuspecting passer bys.
In WoW there's much less outdoor but there's still some. Plus there's Alterac Valley with lots of sneaky places. At least this is when I played it.
In Warhammer the "rogues" intercept loners who move from warcamps to keeps or go to a capital city invasion. They can perch quite well in the most unsuspecting locations, i.e. in the middle of guards in a keep where people may even go AFK.

But in SWTOR? No way. There's no "outdoor equivalent" area with any score, points, gear or anything. You just gank level 25s on Tattoine, some on Hoth but that's like 2-3 guys up for ganking over a whole server of players.
So where do those "rogues" have to play? In relatively small areas and they must play nicely with location-constrained objectives. So in the end we have to gravitate around pylons, it's hard to catch unaware people in places they expect to be attacked.

TLDR: our model works in many MMOs but in SWTOR there's just no use-case for us.
In WoW and other games, "rogues" have a PvE and sometimes PvP spec made on huge sustained damage losing the CCs, but not in SWTOR.

So we are a fairly well designed fish... out of his water.
So are you advocating no stealth no pvp?....because you cannot give all classes the same DPS and similar defensive cool downs but only two stealth.

cycao's Avatar


cycao
09.06.2013 , 12:47 PM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by helpmewin View Post
Oh lol. The best burster in the game and one of best def cd-s, best single-target controls want a buff(deception). Lol. I don't want to read more.
I'm not seeing a whole lot of 'buff deception' but for kicks, what is your take on the worst spec in the game which is sadness?

Vaerah's Avatar


Vaerah
09.06.2013 , 12:57 PM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by Sargrith View Post
So are you advocating no stealth no pvp?....because you cannot give all classes the same DPS and similar defensive cool downs but only two stealth.
I am "advocating" that since outdoor PvP (the natural terrain for sins) has utterly failed, we need the class tweaked to deal with the PvP content the devs make. If they create small arenas where stealth is a non factor and remove nodes making tank spec pointless, what's left of us?
Vaerah Shadow | Arayah Vanguard | Kainessa Gunslinger | ToFN server.
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Cordorian's Avatar


Cordorian
09.06.2013 , 01:07 PM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by Sargrith View Post
So your argument is stealth DPS should be able to stand toe to toe with non stealth, even when the stealth class entered the fight out of stealth?......if they are equal without stealth, how can giving one stealth and not the other keep them equal?.......

Shadow tanks in pvp pretty much might as well not have stealth if they are tanking, tanking means drawing attention to yourself and holding it, or at least diverting some damage to yourself to protect others. Stealthing works the opposite. Honestly from a pvp perspective a stealth tank seems like a killer thing to design right, either it does not work or it is completely op. imagine a tank who could stay stealth yet taunt and guard successfully....it would be brutal. Maybe shadow tanks should get a traint that gives them more damage reduction in exchange for their ability to stealth.....
Deception Assassin are the best 1v1 class in the game. And a skilled assassin wins most of them without stealth even. If that is what you are on about, fine, but pvp especially non objective based pvp is not 1v1. Even in objective based pvp regular wzs you hardly get one 1v1s mostly with ninja capping and node guarding. So it is a mini game in the macro game of a wz. In ranked 8v8 you can be sure the off nodes are guarded by a stealther as well, since it would be stupid to do otherwise, so the only really 1v1s in those matches are between stealthers...
but the 1v1 will play even less of a role in arenas, and so does stealth which is a 1v1 boost.
Both Deception and Concealment are single target burst specs designed for 1v1. Concealment is already in such a horrible place that even in normals you end up frustrated very often, because if you dont crit you hit like a nuddle and have about the survivablity of an unbubbled sage, just that you have into melee to do any damage. Nerfing Deception to the ground as was done with Concealment would render stealth DPS a non factor in SWTOR, with Arenas already pointing in that direction.


The second paragraph makes me wonder whether you know much about the class or how guard works. You practically can't stay in stealth when guarding somebody, since guard transfers part of the damage. That mean you as the assassin tank take damage, and if a stealther takes damage he gets knocked out of stealth. And if you taunt somebody you get unstealthed as well. The only situation where assassin tanks really have a larger benefit from stealth is node guarding. Since for a tanking class they do a nice amount of damage, they are perfect not guards. But tanking a wz like a jugg could would be pointless, since for a tank you are too squishy in comparison.

The only stealth spec that can make use of stealth in open fire massively is the operative healer, without anyone doubting the OP PVP healing class. Despite the free instant emergency heals you can spam below 30% health combat stealth provide the "oh ****" CD, that can keep you and your team alive when you are focused. Playing this class I can ironically say the only class that really can reliably cause you massive troubles are dps assassins. Taming them down more, would actually make Operative healing even more overpowered :P

Sargrith's Avatar


Sargrith
09.06.2013 , 01:52 PM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaerah View Post
I am "advocating" that since outdoor PvP (the natural terrain for sins) has utterly failed, we need the class tweaked to deal with the PvP content the devs make. If they create small arenas where stealth is a non factor and remove nodes making tank spec pointless, what's left of us?
If stealth in arenas is a non factor and we are balancing all classes as if it does not exist then we need to remove it for the entire game. If it stays then in non arena situations the class is op. I don't think that is the proper direction to go but it is what I get from your post.

Sargrith's Avatar


Sargrith
09.06.2013 , 02:00 PM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by Cordorian View Post
Deception Assassin are the best 1v1 class in the game. And a skilled assassin wins most of them without stealth even. If that is what you are on about, fine, but pvp especially non objective based pvp is not 1v1. Even in objective based pvp regular wzs you hardly get one 1v1s mostly with ninja capping and node guarding. So it is a mini game in the macro game of a wz. In ranked 8v8 you can be sure the off nodes are guarded by a stealther as well, since it would be stupid to do otherwise, so the only really 1v1s in those matches are between stealthers...
but the 1v1 will play even less of a role in arenas, and so does stealth which is a 1v1 boost.
Both Deception and Concealment are single target burst specs designed for 1v1. Concealment is already in such a horrible place that even in normals you end up frustrated very often, because if you dont crit you hit like a nuddle and have about the survivablity of an unbubbled sage, just that you have into melee to do any damage. Nerfing Deception to the ground as was done with Concealment would render stealth DPS a non factor in SWTOR, with Arenas already pointing in that direction.


The second paragraph makes me wonder whether you know much about the class or how guard works. You practically can't stay in stealth when guarding somebody, since guard transfers part of the damage. That mean you as the assassin tank take damage, and if a stealther takes damage he gets knocked out of stealth. And if you taunt somebody you get unstealthed as well. The only situation where assassin tanks really have a larger benefit from stealth is node guarding. Since for a tanking class they do a nice amount of damage, they are perfect not guards. But tanking a wz like a jugg could would be pointless, since for a tank you are too squishy in comparison.

The only stealth spec that can make use of stealth in open fire massively is the operative healer, without anyone doubting the OP PVP healing class. Despite the free instant emergency heals you can spam below 30% health combat stealth provide the "oh ****" CD, that can keep you and your team alive when you are focused. Playing this class I can ironically say the only class that really can reliably cause you massive troubles are dps assassins. Taming them down more, would actually make Operative healing even more overpowered :P
You and I are not communicating. I take the blame for not being clear. I am saying that a stealth tank is not viable without changes. My suggestion is if you want the to tank like a jug trade stealth for my base damage reduction.

I also agree shadow burst is where it should be but they don't need burst plus sustained DPS equal to a sentinel.

MasterBLASTERpl's Avatar


MasterBLASTERpl
09.06.2013 , 02:09 PM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaerah View Post
It's lovely how several people keep repeating the weak spot for deception sins is lack of utility and others somehow translate it in "we want higher burst".
So please tell me where deception sins are bad.

I get that I have some sever perception problems, kind of hallucinations things due to some organic brain damage I probably have and those numbers I see in warzones, this ttk , those ninja cap nodes are a manifestation of my health problems

I would like to mention that we are talking about one (out of two) if the strongest hitting class in the single target terms. This 10 boom buff as you said is many times all that I need to vaporised my target.
I don't like raw dmg numbers (tho 100k is still a shameful one) and sins are not supposed to be top damager in the warzones,. They are good with the numbers that are dealing now, huge spikes of damage that either way will kill the target of will make it run aka stop healing. Any buff I would like is only defensive one and it's not needed badly right now.

Tl;dr if somebody is saying that sins shadows in deception infiltration tree are utterly crap - so this is a serious l2p issue, and I would strongly advise some easier games like Tetris (minesweeper can be too hard).
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Vaerah's Avatar


Vaerah
09.06.2013 , 02:56 PM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterBLASTERpl View Post
So please tell me where deception sins are bad.

I get that I have some sever perception problems, kind of hallucinations things due to some organic brain damage I probably have and those numbers I see in warzones, this ttk , those ninja cap nodes are a manifestation of my health problems
No, it's not perception problems, it's selective tunnel visions problems.

Nowhere I said they are "bad", just read the posts where I say "we are a nice fish... out of the water" or that we are a nice class just in a game not made for it.

The proof is in the pudding: as of today tank sins are not wanted:

- in progression PvE, because they may die to random "two boss crits => dead" no matter the skill, the team composition, the amount or ability of the healers. It's just like that: out of ANY player controlled action or capability, they may just die.

- In competitive PvP, for the same reason above. There just cannot exist a PvP sin / shadow tank. Players hit far more often than 1 boss and the "2 hits dead" syndrome is even stronger. Other PVE / PvP classes have reliable and predictable mitigation so they are the mainstay PvP tank. As of today sin tanks find *1* optional spot as node guarders, their ability to stealth guard overcomes their weakness. Come arenas, nodes to guard will just stop existing. And then who wants a tank whose only saving grace was the ability to guard nodes?

DoT spec shadows / sins are not wanted:

- In progression PvE the spec has super-extra stringent pre-requisites in terms of being able to 100% perform totally perfect rotations. A number of encounters just won't allow that and they have to respec infiltration... and then the untamed laughter ensues (at seeing the resulting parses).

- In competitive PvP just ask ANYONE you want and they'll agree saying that madness is one the worst PvP specs in game bar none.

Deception spec shadows / sins are not wanted:

- In progression PvE it's violently THE lowest DPS spec in game (even worse than madness!), a paragon of who you don't want to bring at hard content.

- In competitive PvP just ask ANYONE in a top guild and they'll agree saying you that deception is one of the worst specs, just a bit better than madness.

Just try applying for a renowed guild: they'll only take players of the caliber of Evolixe or Xinika (our class representative) with endless videos and scores of them being able to perform feats that with another class would make the server crash in "nerf it!" nerf demands.
I mean, if Evolixe played a marauder, it'd be like 4M damage and 120 kills a match.

Ah, did I mention that those super guys don't play deception? Guess why?


Of course deception is GREAT as level up spec, to flash-gank level 25s at Tatooine desert and to farm bads in regular warzones and make them quickly post on these forums.

Does this means they are competitive and accepted by good guilds? Nope.

Notice how I never mentioned "DPS" as being a factor for PVP. So the "LOL you want more damage" posts are just unfounded and biased.

Would you want a guy who only exists for your team 10 seconds every 2 minutes?

If your answer is "no, I am not stupid" then you know why deception does not work. I won't even say "it's weak, buff it", because it's not weak. It does not work, period. Needs to be removed and rewritten to plug in the actual SWTOR game, not the "idea of what SWTOR should have been at release".

"No lolololol that's the guy who (despite having posted 300-480k damage scores) does just 100k when he sits AFK at a node!"

Nope, our class representative and one of the big guns of our class is exactly of the same opinion, with multiple posts on our sub-forum saying the same.
Vaerah Shadow | Arayah Vanguard | Kainessa Gunslinger | ToFN server.
Vaerahn Sorceress | Vaerahm Marauder | ToFN server.

Zoom_VI's Avatar


Zoom_VI
09.06.2013 , 03:43 PM | #79
You know, when BW first announced arenas, a lot of us started in on how arenas are going to screw over classes and turn swtor balance into a ever increasing nightmare.

Foresight is 20/20
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FuriCuri's Avatar


FuriCuri
09.07.2013 , 09:38 AM | #80
And stealth cannot be an excuse to not giving sins tweaks. In pvp stealth is used mostly to get into melee range without getting hammered along the way. You know another melee class that can do the same? Yeah, warriors with charge. Their jump even allowed them to switch targets instantly (best for melee train assist) and on top of that it allows to jump on the platforms where sin should run around to get to (for example get back instantly after being pushed from the platform).

Combat stealth? Yeah, marauders got that too.

So currently stealth brings nothing to pvp table that marauders did not already. I see no excuse
for sins to not being buffed to the marauders level of survivability and burst/sustain dps.
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