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Fix broken assassins

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Fix broken assassins

Sargrith's Avatar


Sargrith
09.06.2013 , 11:04 AM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom_VI View Post
I am fully aware on how combat works, and you can hardly say rage is bad on sustained either. And are you trying to imply that Sins and operative dps being ablt to combat stealth is somehow OP, while ignoring the fact that sentinels have their own combat stealth.
The argument of burst specs not having any sustained is terrible, BW already said all dps specs should be within 5%. The high burst should be balanced by the in-between abilities putting up low numbers, Where as a true sustained spec, should be putting up steady constant pressure. Besides Deception's burst is RNG dependent, which cannot be said for rage.
Of the sentinel builds force(rage) is the lowest sustained DPS. Vigilance on the guardian tree in general scores as well or better the sentinel force for sustained, which is about 10% below watchman which is the number 2 for sustained right now. So force(rage) isn't within 10% of combat, let alone that 5% you are claiming was promised. But all this is besides the real point of making pvp balanced for all.


First if you think sentinel stealth in anyway equals or should be equated to the stealth of shadows or scoundrels then we really are done because we really have little common ground then.

Second yes indeed stealth classes with high burst can not in a balanced and fair pvp game have sustained DPS on par with others in any long fight. The other classes need to be able to put up a fight and have a reasonable chance to win if they live through the burst which means after the burst the other classes need to be able to pump out more DPS when the two are now openly trading blows. If the other class cannot how do they over come the burst of the stealth class? This means when fighting a training dummy and taking a parse over an extended period of time the other classes will do more sustained DPS then the stealth class.

To me the idea that stealth classes should be able to run up (unstealthed) to and simply trade blows with a non stealth class and expect to win is silly, the non stealth class should destroy the stealth class in a straight up broadside exchange. The balance comes from the fact the stealth class doesn't fight that way, he picks his fight he comes in puts the other guy in the hurt locker then wins because of his DPS lead from his burst. But if both the shadow and the sentinel have the same sustained DPS then what you have a situation were stealth is overpowering.

Cordorian's Avatar


Cordorian
09.06.2013 , 11:40 AM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by Sargrith View Post
Of the sentinel builds force(rage) is the lowest sustained DPS. Vigilance on the guardian tree in general scores as well or better the sentinel force for sustained, which is about 10% below watchman which is the number 2 for sustained right now. So force(rage) isn't within 10% of combat, let alone that 5% you are claiming was promised. But all this is besides the real point of making pvp balanced for all.


First if you think sentinel stealth in anyway equals or should be equated to the stealth of shadows or scoundrels then we really are done because we really have little common ground then.

Second yes indeed stealth classes with high burst can not in a balanced and fair pvp game have sustained DPS on par with others in any long fight. The other classes need to be able to put up a fight and have a reasonable chance to win if they live through the burst which means after the burst the other classes need to be able to pump out more DPS when the two are now openly trading blows. If the other class cannot how do they over come the burst of the stealth class? This means when fighting a training dummy and taking a parse over an extended period of time the other classes will do more sustained DPS then the stealth class.

To me the idea that stealth classes should be able to run up (unstealthed) to and simply trade blows with a non stealth class and expect to win is silly, the non stealth class should destroy the stealth class in a straight up broadside exchange. The balance comes from the fact the stealth class doesn't fight that way, he picks his fight he comes in puts the other guy in the hurt locker then wins because of his DPS lead from his burst. But if both the shadow and the sentinel have the same sustained DPS then what you have a situation were stealth is overpowering.
what you are basically saying is nerf both stealth dps classes such that they are even less viable for serious pvp?
And I thought concealment /scrapper was already completely use:P
Turn it was you want, but dying 8v8 and new arenas cannot be fought from stealth completely. If a non stealth should in principe be able to destroy a stealth class out of stealth ceteris paribus, then operative/scoundrel and assassin/shadow dps would have in principle no place in either (with objectives going away with arenas, even less though in the latter). From what I take from tanking front assassin/shadow tanks are also not really viable for arena (PTS as current setting). This would in principle eliminate a complete advanced class from content, and it is still struggling in the PVE part of the game-> punishing out of stealth dps further would raise the question why not entirely remove the advanced class from the game.

Vaerah's Avatar


Vaerah
09.06.2013 , 12:06 PM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by Sargrith View Post
Personally being able to combat stealth to me is the biggest issue. Maybe for pvp they should think of disabling it...
If they gave me smasher comparable damage I'd be ok with it.
Sincerely, I do just fine without stealth toe to toe with other meleers, having to be useless past the first 10 seconds after the opener is too much. After all I can't force-restealth every 20 seconds, I have to wait minutes to use the button again!
Vaerah Shadow | Arayah Vanguard | Kainessa Gunslinger | ToFN server.
Vaerahn Sorceress | Vaerahm Marauder | ToFN server.

Vaerah's Avatar


Vaerah
09.06.2013 , 12:09 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterBLASTERpl View Post
Playing a mm sniper is more like playing as your companion (Andronikus for ex) if things will go bad you can't "turn the table" like a sin by trying to ninja cap enemy node, going after enemy healer isn't like a death sentence when (s)he will go Los, above all all your attacks required to be in crouch, once you will be drag out of it you can only pray to be able to toss your flash bang nade.
Imo you are romancing the sin too much. "Going after healer death sentence?" LOL find a vaguely competent and geared one, he'll stay alive till his team mates have vaporized you.
Vaerah Shadow | Arayah Vanguard | Kainessa Gunslinger | ToFN server.
Vaerahn Sorceress | Vaerahm Marauder | ToFN server.

Sargrith's Avatar


Sargrith
09.06.2013 , 12:17 PM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by Cordorian View Post
what you are basically saying is nerf both stealth dps classes such that they are even less viable for serious pvp?
And I thought concealment /scrapper was already completely use:P
Turn it was you want, but dying 8v8 and new arenas cannot be fought from stealth completely. If a non stealth should in principe be able to destroy a stealth class out of stealth ceteris paribus, then operative/scoundrel and assassin/shadow dps would have in principle no place in either (with objectives going away with arenas, even less though in the latter). From what I take from tanking front assassin/shadow tanks are also not really viable for arena (PTS as current setting). This would in principle eliminate a complete advanced class from content, and it is still struggling in the PVE part of the game-> punishing out of stealth dps further would raise the question why not entirely remove the advanced class from the game.
So your argument is stealth DPS should be able to stand toe to toe with non stealth, even when the stealth class entered the fight out of stealth?......if they are equal without stealth, how can giving one stealth and not the other keep them equal?.......

Shadow tanks in pvp pretty much might as well not have stealth if they are tanking, tanking means drawing attention to yourself and holding it, or at least diverting some damage to yourself to protect others. Stealthing works the opposite. Honestly from a pvp perspective a stealth tank seems like a killer thing to design right, either it does not work or it is completely op. imagine a tank who could stay stealth yet taunt and guard successfully....it would be brutal. Maybe shadow tanks should get a traint that gives them more damage reduction in exchange for their ability to stealth.....

Vaerah's Avatar


Vaerah
09.06.2013 , 12:21 PM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by Sargrith View Post
To me the idea that stealth classes should be able to run up (unstealthed) to and simply trade blows with a non stealth class and expect to win is silly, the non stealth class should destroy the stealth class in a straight up broadside exchange. The balance comes from the fact the stealth class doesn't fight that way, he picks his fight he comes in puts the other guy in the hurt locker then wins because of his DPS lead from his burst. But if both the shadow and the sentinel have the same sustained DPS then what you have a situation were stealth is overpowering.
That'd be fine in GW2, in WoW and even in Warhammer Online.
In GW2 we have vast "outdoor" areas where a "rogue" can indeed do what you say on the unsuspecting passer bys.
In WoW there's much less outdoor but there's still some. Plus there's Alterac Valley with lots of sneaky places. At least this is when I played it.
In Warhammer the "rogues" intercept loners who move from warcamps to keeps or go to a capital city invasion. They can perch quite well in the most unsuspecting locations, i.e. in the middle of guards in a keep where people may even go AFK.

But in SWTOR? No way. There's no "outdoor equivalent" area with any score, points, gear or anything. You just gank level 25s on Tattoine, some on Hoth but that's like 2-3 guys up for ganking over a whole server of players.
So where do those "rogues" have to play? In relatively small areas and they must play nicely with location-constrained objectives. So in the end we have to gravitate around pylons, it's hard to catch unaware people in places they expect to be attacked.

TLDR: our model works in many MMOs but in SWTOR there's just no use-case for us.
In WoW and other games, "rogues" have a PvE and sometimes PvP spec made on huge sustained damage losing the CCs, but not in SWTOR.

So we are a fairly well designed fish... out of his water.
Vaerah Shadow | Arayah Vanguard | Kainessa Gunslinger | ToFN server.
Vaerahn Sorceress | Vaerahm Marauder | ToFN server.

helpmewin's Avatar


helpmewin
09.06.2013 , 12:24 PM | #67
Lol. L2P issue. I agree that shadow tanks are worst in PvP as in PvE. Need to increase their DR and reduce their DMG/threath, mb delete auto-crit project and increase crit chance and delete shadow strike in face. I agree that shadow DPS worst in PvE, but what PvP-s doing here? Are u rerolled form vanguards pre 2.0 and u want 2 button annihilate in deception spec? 3 buttons is not enough? Lol u are sadly. Deception is OP in PvP. Need to reduce their burst.
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Helpmewin
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Vaerah's Avatar


Vaerah
09.06.2013 , 12:24 PM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by Cordorian View Post
This would in principle eliminate a complete advanced class from content, and it is still struggling in the PVE part of the game-> punishing out of stealth dps further would raise the question why not entirely remove the advanced class from the game.
This, If BW accepted to trade my shadow for a sentinel or a commando or some ranged DPS (I play lots RDPS in most MMOs) that is not sniper, then I'd accept at once.

It's very stressful to feel and be un-competitive and useless and have to fight an uphill battle to be accepted both in PvE and PvP.
Vaerah Shadow | Arayah Vanguard | Kainessa Gunslinger | ToFN server.
Vaerahn Sorceress | Vaerahm Marauder | ToFN server.

Vaerah's Avatar


Vaerah
09.06.2013 , 12:26 PM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by helpmewin View Post
Lol. L2P issue. I agree that shadow tanks are worst in PvP as in PvE. Need to increase their DR and reduce their DMG/threath, mb delete auto-crit project and incrase crit chance and delete shadow strike in face. I agree that shadow DPS worst in PvE, but what PvP-s doing here? Are u rerolled form vanguards pre 2.0 and u want 2 button annihilate in deception spec? 3 buttons is not enough? Lol u are sadly. Deception is OP in PvP. Need to reduce their burst.
It's lovely how several people keep repeating the weak spot for deception sins is lack of utility and others somehow translate it in "we want higher burst".
Vaerah Shadow | Arayah Vanguard | Kainessa Gunslinger | ToFN server.
Vaerahn Sorceress | Vaerahm Marauder | ToFN server.

helpmewin's Avatar


helpmewin
09.06.2013 , 12:28 PM | #70
Oh lol. The best burster in the game and one of best def cd-s, best single-target controls want a buff(deception). Lol. I don't want to read more.
Sithexecutor(where Tactics buff?)
Helpmewin
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