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Official Juggernaut Questions

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wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
09.04.2013 , 02:24 PM | #91
Quote: Originally Posted by UndyingHadyn View Post
This was what I had originally had wanted to post. LoL.. damn Iphones.
Its a lovely article but its entirely based on PvP. I think the discussion was about Vengeance in PvE, and what could be done mathematically to either boost its DPS to a more manageable level or make the class easier to play (I'm in favor of the former, and would prefer a boost to the Rampage proc chance as I enjoy the challenge of getting off Ravages).

Increased Rampage proc chance, either through better chances on Impale/Shatter or additional attacks/bleeds causing the proc, not only improves us through the use of Ravage, but has a huge positive effect on Rage management as well, since a proc restores 3 Rage in addition to allowing use of our heaviest hitting attack that also costs no Rage. It also allows us to get more creative with our rotation, more Rage to spend = more things to do.

On the other hand, just a flat increase to bleed damage, yeah it'd solve the problem but it would mean the spec plays exactly as it does now, which is fine, but I'd prefer to increase the flexibility and potential of the class rather than simply buff it. More Rampage procs = higher potential for more skilled players, but lower floor for less skilled ones (compared to a flat increase to bleeds), and I enjoy when a class plays this way.

UndyingHadyn's Avatar


UndyingHadyn
09.04.2013 , 07:50 PM | #92
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
Its a lovely article but its entirely based on PvP. I think the discussion was about Vengeance in PvE, and what could be done mathematically to either boost its DPS to a more manageable level or make the class easier to play (I'm in favor of the former, and would prefer a boost to the Rampage proc chance as I enjoy the challenge of getting off Ravages).

Increased Rampage proc chance, either through better chances on Impale/Shatter or additional attacks/bleeds causing the proc, not only improves us through the use of Ravage, but has a huge positive effect on Rage management as well, since a proc restores 3 Rage in addition to allowing use of our heaviest hitting attack that also costs no Rage. It also allows us to get more creative with our rotation, more Rage to spend = more things to do.

On the other hand, just a flat increase to bleed damage, yeah it'd solve the problem but it would mean the spec plays exactly as it does now, which is fine, but I'd prefer to increase the flexibility and potential of the class rather than simply buff it. More Rampage procs = higher potential for more skilled players, but lower floor for less skilled ones (compared to a flat increase to bleeds), and I enjoy when a class plays this way.
Well, there were a plethora of solid suggestions made to assist or revamp the Rampage proc. Hmm. What's the real issue here? Are pve'ers upset about missing a Ravage or not experiencing enough critical euphoria? Believe me, pvp'ers understand your pain. The trade off for us however, is we actually utilize the survivability in pvp. I'll say it as many times as I have to... we can't boost Vengeance dps unless we increase Rage spec's survivability. If that balance is achieved, and perceived from a pvp perspective... I could care less. You pve'ers should be playing Rage, for it is in essence, thee ultimate dps spec that our class has. Make sense?

As Marb stated, Vengeance is a unique and complex spec to address. Pve'ers want solid reliable dps so they can watch their jugs' animations and top the charts. When you crossover to pvp, you'll see a huge imbalance. As much as I love the class(I have 3 jugs), I honestly can't support a decision that simply increases our Vengeance dps. What I can support, is more "skilled" options to utilize the damage potential that we've been given.

kennethdale's Avatar


kennethdale
09.05.2013 , 12:15 AM | #93
Quote: Originally Posted by UndyingHadyn View Post
Well, there were a plethora of solid suggestions made to assist or revamp the Rampage proc. Hmm. What's the real issue here? Are pve'ers upset about missing a Ravage or not experiencing enough critical euphoria? Believe me, pvp'ers understand your pain. The trade off for us however, is we actually utilize the survivability in pvp. I'll say it as many times as I have to... we can't boost Vengeance dps unless we increase Rage spec's survivability. If that balance is achieved, and perceived from a pvp perspective... I could care less. You pve'ers should be playing Rage, for it is in essence, thee ultimate dps spec that our class has. Make sense?

As Marb stated, Vengeance is a unique and complex spec to address. Pve'ers want solid reliable dps so they can watch their jugs' animations and top the charts. When you crossover to pvp, you'll see a huge imbalance. As much as I love the class(I have 3 jugs), I honestly can't support a decision that simply increases our Vengeance dps. What I can support, is more "skilled" options to utilize the damage potential that we've been given.
...But Rage is NOT the ultimate DPS spec. In any way. For one it is INTENSELY boring, moreso than for Marauders because it is more scripted (Enrage>Smash>Crush>Smash vs Marauders having to do other things to ensure Berserk is up), it is actually lower DPS when up against a good proc run for Vengeance, and it is a VERY safe assumption that the devs view Jugg Rage in a similar light to Mara Rage which means that they have no intention of it being a sustained DPS spec IE not viable in PvE. I'm really confused by your ambivalence towards PvE; from what I have seen the PvE community has always attempted to keep PvP in mind with our proposed changes whereas you seem to care nothing for the side you don't play.

You entirely wrong about why PvE Jugg players want to adjust the DPS of Vengeance. We want to give our raids a reason to bring us. We, like many other classes, want to be able to answer the question of "Why bring a Jugg DPS?" Most of the people I have talked to could care less about "topping the charts". And "watching animations"? Are you trying to be utterly pedantic? In all truth, I could care less about the survivability of Vengeace vs Rage. I would even argue that trying to up Jugg survivability will hit a wall head on in the design of our DCDs; save for Enraged Defenses, they are designed to work with our Heavy armor and our other mitigative factors to extend our life until we can get healed. A Marauders DCDs on the other hand are meant to STOP enough damage to give them time to kill the enemy. Asking for other survivability, whether it is for Vengeance or Immortal will result in people laughing in our faces. This is even more true for Rage because of how most people view it as immensely over-powered, regardless of whether that is a Jugg or a Mara. In essence, what you are asking for is similar to Sorcerers demanding heavier armor; its simply not going to happen.
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UndyingHadyn's Avatar


UndyingHadyn
09.05.2013 , 01:51 AM | #94
Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
...But Rage is NOT the ultimate DPS spec. hehe. Yes. It. Is. In any way. For one it is INTENSELY boring, wow...just wow. I seriously question your mentality. moreso than for Marauders because it is more scripted (Enrage>Smash>Crush>Smash vs Marauders having to do other things to ensure Berserk is up), it is actually lower DPS when up against a good proc run for Vengeance, You are disregarding many variables...namely player skill...

and it is a VERY safe assumption that the devs view Jugg Rage in a similar light to Mara Rage which means that they have no intention of it being a sustained DPS spec IE not viable in PvE. ...Never ASSume anything.

I'm really confused by your ambivalence towards PvE; from what I have seen the PvE community has always attempted to keep PvP in mind with our proposed changes whereas you seem to care nothing for the side you don't play.
You display inexperienced, unfair and extremely short-sighted opinions. I have stated numerous times in the many threads that I have constructed, about how the changes affect both pvp and pve. Do not presume my position on pve gameplay. You dislike what I say, because you know I'm right.

You entirely wrong about why PvE Jugg players want to adjust the DPS of Vengeance.

hehe. You are completely oblivious to the fundamentals of our class. You want your cake and you want to eat it too. Your inability to accept the roles of your class, or how to play your class effectively isn't my problem.


We want to give our raids a reason to bring us.
No. You just want an excuse for YOUR raid to bring YOU.

We, like many other classes, want to be able to answer the question of "Why bring a Jugg DPS?" Most of the people I have talked to could care less about "topping the charts". And "watching animations"? Are you trying to be utterly pedantic? In all truth, I could care less about the survivability of Vengeace vs Rage.
You should consider what I say and think outside of your "moar dps" box. The correlations between damage potential and survivability are extremely important.


I would even argue that trying to up Jugg survivability will hit a wall head on in the design of our DCDs; save for Enraged Defenses, they are designed to work with our Heavy armor and our other mitigative factors to extend our life until we can get healed. A Marauders DCDs on the other hand are meant to STOP enough damage to give them time to kill the enemy. Asking for other survivability, whether it is for Vengeance or Immortal...not once have we asked for more survivability in the immortal or vengeance trees. Please read before you continue to embarrass yourself. will result in people laughing in our faces. This is even more true for Rage because of how most people view it as immensely over-powered, regardless of whether that is a Jugg or a Mara. In essence, what you are asking for is similar to Sorcerers demanding heavier armor; its simply not going to happen.

Were these discussions and suggestions aimed at a desired synergy or balance within trees? Immortal works great. Vengeance has great survivability, coupled with great damage potential. Rage is the best dps spec we have...period. Or in your case, were all of these discussions leading to just more Vengeance dps?

All I am stating is, that You cannot keep increasing Vengeance dps and let it retain it's defensive abilities. It's silly.

You continually fail to realize this obvious truth. I could see some sort of consumable proc, or specific burst option being woven in, but it could not exist above and beyond the dps potential we already possess. If you were to increase Vengeance dps potential, you would have to increase the survivability of Rage. Do not fret, for this will be highly unlikely to happen anyways.
Let your anger flow young one. Recite the sith code 10 times, and you'll be good to go.

EricMusco's Avatar


EricMusco
09.06.2013 , 10:51 AM | #95 Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. Next  
Hey everyone,

Just a heads up. As I hinted at around the Sorc/Van questions from last time (heal to full anyone? ) we will not be posting answers on Fridays anymore. I am aiming to get them to all of you Monday. Either way I will post an update Monday on the status!

Thanks everyone,

-eric
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paowee's Avatar


paowee
09.06.2013 , 12:07 PM | #96
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey everyone,

Just a heads up.... (heal to full anyone? )
Yay eric!
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cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
09.06.2013 , 12:42 PM | #97
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey everyone,

Just a heads up. As I hinted at around the Sorc/Van questions from last time (heal to full anyone? ) we will not be posting answers on Fridays anymore. I am aiming to get them to all of you Monday. Either way I will post an update Monday on the status!

Thanks everyone,

-eric
Its good to see youve gotten the dev team to take this a little bit more seriously.

Dont tell anyone I can heal to full on my Merc!
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metaIsaber's Avatar


metaIsaber
09.06.2013 , 12:52 PM | #98
Not sure if excited or worried to see what gets said on Monday.

DOHboy's Avatar


DOHboy
09.06.2013 , 01:33 PM | #99
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey everyone,

Just a heads up. As I hinted at around the Sorc/Van questions from last time (heal to full anyone? ) we will not be posting answers on Fridays anymore. I am aiming to get them to all of you Monday. Either way I will post an update Monday on the status!

Thanks everyone,

-eric
I see what you did there...and Approve

idnewton's Avatar


idnewton
09.06.2013 , 03:48 PM | #100
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey everyone,

Just a heads up. As I hinted at around the Sorc/Van questions from last time (heal to full anyone? ) we will not be posting answers on Fridays anymore. I am aiming to get them to all of you Monday. Either way I will post an update Monday on the status!

Thanks everyone,

-eric
Well ya know... maybe if your answers didn't suck... we might not mind having them on Fridays.
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