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Mace Windu's Choice on the Masters in EP III

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Mace Windu's Choice on the Masters in EP III

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
09.05.2013 , 01:52 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
To clear this up..

Sidious clearly speedblitzed the two of them before they could even react to what he was doing. The movie showed the same, abit differently sure but that is what happened....
Sidious had to distract Tiin so his ambush would have worked. But there are four there, why did Windu do nothing when Sidious jumped to them and killed two?

No, Kolar swayed, he did make a move, but Windu did nothing.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
09.05.2013 , 02:01 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
No, Kolar swayed, he did make a move, but Windu did nothing.
Kolar kinda had a hole in his head...
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
09.05.2013 , 02:10 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Kolar kinda had a hole in his head...
If the other 2 could make moves, Palpatine would not be that easily to kill him.

You can see in the Mandalore battle, he had to push Maul away to kill Savage, and it's not like with one strike.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
09.05.2013 , 02:17 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
No, Kolar swayed, he did make a move, but Windu did nothing.
His swaying is referring to him collapsing to the floor, dead. Not him attacking. Though the film clearly shows that all Kolar does it raise his blade, and funnily enough it takes more time to cross a distance and raise one's blade to intercept an attack than to simply raise ones blade.

Also noting that Windu was likely recovering from surprise, and that again, Sidious' speed is force augmented. Even if this were not the case, Windu still would struggle to intercept that attack.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
09.05.2013 , 02:17 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
No, Windu tried to move behind Sidious to attack him from different angles, which let Fisto need to face Sidious head on.



Team work could help a lot, like Anakin+Obi Wan VS Dooku in EP III, and a better example, Maul brothers VS Sidious, they did hold much longer than the other 3 when Sidious was dual wielding, is Savage and Maul much stronger than Tiin, Kolar and Fisto? Not likely.



Force Speed is not Sith only, especially he had to change direction and kill Kolar. Sidious' speed didn't even own Maul brothers that badly, when the space was much bigger.


And he was in combat, he could keep stick with Sidious, keep face him and take his attack, which would work greatly, Vaapad power up with the Dark Side power it faced.




He simply wasn't well prepared, and didn't form a good team.

The question is simply. Is Savage and Maul much stronger than Tiin, Kolar and Fisto? No, and none of them are as powerful as Windu. So it means the four Jedi didn't form a good team.
You have it completely the wrong way round. Watch the fight again, and pause exactly at 0:48. Quite clearly we see Windu moving in-front of Sidious and Fisto moving behind him. In the next couple of seconds Sidious turns around (because he can manipulate the flow of the battle as he pleases) and takes out Fisto before whipping back around to deflect Windu's incoming attack. Windu is powerless to stop him. One could argue that if Fisto had been attacking from the sides he would have had a better chance, but against such a skilled opponent you don't have a choice in what direction you attack from, you move with the flow of the battle.

The Anakin and Kenobi example is not a good one, because alone Anakin was superior to Dooku and Kenobi a match for him. This scenario is different, Windu and Sidious are equals and the rest are simply eclipsed. As such teamwork will only get you so far, because if your opponent focuses on you even for a second - you are dead.

Now concerning Force speed, its pretty simple. Without Vaapad Windu just isn't as fast as Sidious, so there is no chance that he could have intercepted those attacks which in itself is a difficult task to perform. Sidious caught them of guard, and capitalised on that weakness through superior speed. This had nothing to do with tactics, but simply superior abilities, no matter what there tactics were, unless they were expecting such an attack, their is nothing that could be done. But again are you implying Windu is some kind of old, slow fool? Who just watched?

Concerning Maul and Savage. I'd just point out that at least in my opinion, Maul is a better duelist than Fisto, Tinn and Kolar, and Savage is a more powerful Force user. Which places them in much better stead for taking him on. Savage wiped the floor with all Jedi he faced, including Jedi Council Member Adi Gallia, and Maul was skilled enough to compete with the likes of Vader and Dooku if given a chance. So yes, combined they are considerably stronger. The duel itself is clear evidence of this. Tactics alone won't help you against such a powerful opponent.

Regardless their are several differences and considerations that should be taken into account here:

1. Maul and Savage were ready, they were not caught off guard like the Jedi Strike Team, and therefore more able of withstanding Sidious' initial assault.

2. Maul and Savage have a great deal of experience fighting with each other and the former trained thelatter, much like Anakin and Kenobi. And like that pair capitalized on that strength with considerable effect against opponents such as Dooku, as Maul and Savage did against Sidious. Windu, Kolar, Tinn and Fisto have worked together in the past, but not against challenging opponents, and they don't share the master-apprentice bond.

3. Sidious was toying with them. The determination and anger we see in Sidious' face when fighting the Jedi is not present when he fights Maul and Savage, instead he cackles and seems much more relaxed. He certainly starts fighting harder as the battle progresses, but every tiny advantage allows Maul and Savage to survive a little longer.

4. I feel the need to say this again, but don't underestimate Maul. He could likely take on two of the Jedi in said strike team and win, like he did against Kenobi and Jinn with ease. He took on Sidious one on one and put him on the backfoot, he even managed to score a hit. He is an exceptional, exceptional lightsaber duelist.

Windu could certainly have picked a more skilled team of duelists i.e. Kenobi, Yoda etc. but if he had chosen duelists of the same caliber, but simply different skill sets - the outcome would have been very much the same.

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
09.05.2013 , 02:20 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Wait what are you suggestion here? I don't think anyone disagrees that Yoda + Windu + Kenobi > Sidious. But I was referring strictly to Kenobi here, essentially what if Windu had brought Kenobi alone with him.

Though as a general point, I think Kenobi's excellent defense would put him in good stead for surviving the intial bout, and then he could tag-team with Windu. But in all honesty I think he'd just get in the way. Vaapad doesn't seem the best form to fight alongside others with.
I was just saying, it's too much for Sidious to handle and Kenobi wouldn't die.
The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away fromů save one.
Zarys Sorcerer Cathinka Scoundrel
Force In Balance - The Harbinger

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
09.05.2013 , 02:25 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
If the other 2 could make moves, Palpatine would not be that easily to kill him.

You can see in the Mandalore battle, he had to push Maul away to kill Savage, and it's not like with one strike.
I don't think he had to, I think he wanted to torment Maul. No matter how good Maul was, he couldn't save Savage from the likes of Sidious.
The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away fromů save one.
Zarys Sorcerer Cathinka Scoundrel
Force In Balance - The Harbinger

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
09.05.2013 , 02:33 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
I was just saying, it's too much for Sidious to handle and Kenobi wouldn't die.
In regards to Kenobi + Windu?

You are probably correct.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
09.05.2013 , 02:44 PM | #39
I'll say it again, in a perfect world, Mace would have brought Yoda, Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Anakin Skywalker to arrest Palpatine. But they were not available (Skywalker was untrustworthy), so he brought the best he had on hand.

Personally, I don't think any team unless Yoda was in it would have been useful. But you can't just send Windu alone because he would have suffered the same fate as Tiin and Kolar.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
09.05.2013 , 02:47 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Personally, I don't think any team unless Yoda was in it would have been useful. But you can't just send Windu alone because he would have suffered the same fate as Tiin and Kolar.
You think? Windu and Sidious were equally matched, the other Jedi just got in the way.