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Mace Windu's Choice on the Masters in EP III

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Mace Windu's Choice on the Masters in EP III

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
09.05.2013 , 12:44 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
[COLOR=#CC9e42]If your going to ignore the evidence in front of you then fine, but the fact remains that Sidious is perfectly capable of taking Windu and another highly skilled Jedi on simultaneously with little difficulty. Windu did not dodge or retreat, he was as stuck in that brief duel as Fisto was but he simply wasn't fast enough to fend off Sidious and defend Fisto at the same time. Vaapad only afforded him the ability to hold off Sidious alone.
Palpatine was only able to do it for a short moment, and please look at the video, he did move away, gave Palpatine the time and angle to directly face Fisto and kill him. What he should do is keep face Sidious and draw his focus.

Vaapad would work as long as he was the one who face Sidious.

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Teamwork is all well and good, but when your teammates just can't keep up, it won't get you anywhere.
They don't have to, as long as Mace Windu could do his job well. It's just like let your DPS face the boss' damage directly, does that mean they are useless?

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And simply put Sidious was leagues ahead of any Jedi on the Council bar Yoda and Windu in terms of power and skill. Windu would have his hands full defending a bunch of novices (in comparison with Sidious) who would quickly fall as soon as Sidious applied some pressure. Not even that, Fisto was taking down with an off hand flourish as Sidious moved to intercept Windu's attack. There is nothing Windu could have done to prevent that, he can't be everywhere at once.
It does not mean he could take Windu+3 masters together if they could form a good group.

It's not attack, Windu should keep face Sidious, move when Sidious move. force him to focus on him and let others attack.

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As for your final paragraph, that's just silly. You can't just say "oh well Windu should have done this" - he didn't, and know matter who those Jedi where, he wouldn't have in any situation. No amount of teamwork or tactics could have prepared him for the sheer speed and efficiency of Sidious attack. Even if Windu had attempted to defend them he would have been to late. He killed them in seconds, because they were all (Windu included) just too slow.
That's not true, read the novel, even Kolar was able to make a move when Tiin was killed.

Did you even read the novel? Palpatine even had to use his words to distract Saesee Tiin so he could kill him with surprise, then Agen Kolar was able to make a sway before he got killed, Mace Windu simply did nothing, even though Sidious had move a much longer distance to kill these two.

He could move as fast as Sidious, as he did later in the novel and the movie. You are keep ignoring this: Windu was able to move as fast as Sidious, and he should be prepared when Sidious made his move.

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
09.05.2013 , 01:04 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Well I don't expect that Kenobi would have one, but would he had died after a few seconds? Or would he have held out for a time?
Am I the only one thinking Kenobi would have survived, and Mace's rushing was the defeat of the order?
If Mace had waited and called them back immediately (hell, call all jedi back or tell them to be prepared, just in case) they would have likely managed to take Sidious down, consequently before Order 66 was launched.

I think Kenobi would survive for 2 reasons,
1) no Lightsaber skill, no matter how vast, can hold off Windu and Yoda, whilst attempting to kill the greatest Soresu master of all time
2) Yoda could easily protect his allies from Force lightning, whilst managing to cost sidious a bit of energy a lot the way....


I think Kenobi would survive, merely because Yoda and Windu are just too good to ignore, think of it like the Gungans taking grevious down. He could have slaughtered them all, but with one or two of them holding his attention, and getting hit every time he tried to strike one down, he just couldn't do it.
The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from… save one.
Zarys Sorcerer Cathinka Seeliara Sage
Force In Balance - The Harbinger

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
09.05.2013 , 01:05 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
Am I the only one thinking Kenobi would have survived, and Mace's rushing was the defeat of the order?
If Mace had waited and called them back immediately (hell, call all jedi back or tell them to be prepared, just in case) they would have likely managed to take Sidious down, consequently before Order 66 was launched.

I think Kenobi would survive for 2 reasons,
1) no Lightsaber skill, no matter how vast, can hold off Windu and Yoda, whilst attempting to kill the greatest Soresu master of all time
2) Yoda could easily protect his allies from Force lightning, whilst managing to cost sidious a bit of energy a lot the way....


I think Kenobi would survive, merely because Yoda and Windu are just too good to ignore, think of it like the Gungans taking grevious down. He could have slaughtered them all, but with one or two of them holding his attention, and getting hit every time he tried to strike one down, he just couldn't do it.
Sidious would not have let Anakin know his identity, if Yoda was there.

Shaak Tii would be a good choice at that time because of her Makashi.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
09.05.2013 , 01:14 PM | #24
The video showed clearly, Windu simply did nothing when Sidious

Ignite his Lightsaber, made a big Force Jump, focus strength to stab Agen Kolar, kill Tiin.

Then he tried to move behind Sidious to attack him from behind and let Fisto face Sidious, which resulted Fisto's death.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
09.05.2013 , 01:22 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
The video showed clearly, Windu simply did nothing when Sidious

Ignite his Lightsaber, made a big Force Jump, focus strength to stab Agen Kolar, kill Tiin.

Then he tried to move behind Sidious to attack him from behind and let Fisto face Sidious, which resulted Fisto's death.
Windu did not 'do nothing.' Every source clearly states that Sidious cut Tiin and Kolar down before Windu could even react.
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
09.05.2013 , 01:25 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Windu did not 'do nothing.' Every source clearly states that Sidious cut Tiin and Kolar down before Windu could even react.
Why couldn't he react, he was ready to fight, and didn't do anything to help his men.

Even Kolar could make a sway when Tiin was killed in the novel, Mace Windu is much faster.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
09.05.2013 , 01:34 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Palpatine was only able to do it for a short moment, and please look at the video, he did move away, gave Palpatine the time and angle to directly face Fisto and kill him. What he should do is keep face Sidious and draw his focus.

Vaapad would work as long as he was the one who face Sidious.


They don't have to, as long as Mace Windu could do his job well. It's just like let your DPS face the boss' damage directly, does that mean they are useless?



It does not mean he could take Windu+3 masters together if they could form a good group.

It's not attack, Windu should keep face Sidious, move when Sidious move. force him to focus on him and let others attack.



That's not true, read the novel, even Kolar was able to make a move when Tiin was killed.

Did you even read the novel? Palpatine even had to use his words to distract Saesee Tiin so he could kill him with surprise, then Agen Kolar was able to make a sway before he got killed, Mace Windu simply did nothing, even though Sidious had move a much longer distance to kill these two.

He could move as fast as Sidious, as he did later in the novel and the movie. You are keep ignoring this: Windu was able to move as fast as Sidious, and he should be prepared when Sidious made his move.
I really am confused where you are getting this idea that Windu dodged and moved back. Windu was on him the whole time, and Sidious' attention was focused on Windu the whole time. They were effectively following your proposed tactic. Sidious attacked Fisto and Windu moved in to assist him, taking the brunt of the attack while Fisto engaged him from behind. However a simply flourish was all it took to keep Fisto out of the picture while holding off Sidious.

And your comparisons between game mechanics and actual lightsaber combat are again flawed. There are just too many additional variables that the game does not represent. But if you insist on drawing a comparison imagine Sidious and Windu as Lvl 50s and Fisto, Tinn and Kolar as level 10s. They could have a perfect tactic with Windu tanking while the others attacked from behind. But all it takes is and AOE or a brief diversion in attacks to take them out.

And finally concerning Force speed, regardless of what the novel says, it was evidently used. Even if distracted Kolar would be capable of deflecting an incoming attack, coming out with at most a glancing wound. But to simply rush and impale a master swordsman? Force speed is the only explanation, the same applies for Tinn who had no excuse for being cut down without blocking a single attack. Remember who we are dealing with here, Tinn, Kolar and Fisto were some of the greatest Jedi lightsaber duelists in the entire Order. Yet they were schooled by Sidious' superior Force abilities. Regardless their deaths happened, and the same would have happened with any other Jedi.

Your also forgetting that Windu only uses Vaapad in combat. I find it very hard to believe that Windu was already channeling Sidious' rage before it was even directed at him - which refutes the entire nature of the form - and he therefore would not have had his abilities augmeneted in any way. Heck one could even say it took time for Windu to get into Vaapad's full flow, in fact I believe the novel makes reference to Windu - halfway through the battle - giving over fully to Vaapad. Again the Jedi underestimating their opponent played a part in their defeat.

Unless of course your suggestion that Windu is blind and slow and simple just stood there while his comrades were chopped down for no reason, if that's the case then the Jedi stood no chance at all.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
09.05.2013 , 01:37 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
Am I the only one thinking Kenobi would have survived, and Mace's rushing was the defeat of the order?
If Mace had waited and called them back immediately (hell, call all jedi back or tell them to be prepared, just in case) they would have likely managed to take Sidious down, consequently before Order 66 was launched.

I think Kenobi would survive for 2 reasons,
1) no Lightsaber skill, no matter how vast, can hold off Windu and Yoda, whilst attempting to kill the greatest Soresu master of all time
2) Yoda could easily protect his allies from Force lightning, whilst managing to cost sidious a bit of energy a lot the way....


I think Kenobi would survive, merely because Yoda and Windu are just too good to ignore, think of it like the Gungans taking grevious down. He could have slaughtered them all, but with one or two of them holding his attention, and getting hit every time he tried to strike one down, he just couldn't do it.
Wait what are you suggestion here? I don't think anyone disagrees that Yoda + Windu + Kenobi > Sidious. But I was referring strictly to Kenobi here, essentially what if Windu had brought Kenobi alone with him.

Though as a general point, I think Kenobi's excellent defense would put him in good stead for surviving the intial bout, and then he could tag-team with Windu. But in all honesty I think he'd just get in the way. Vaapad doesn't seem the best form to fight alongside others with.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
09.05.2013 , 01:45 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
[COLOR=#CC9e42]I really am confused where you are getting this idea that Windu dodged and moved back. Windu was on him the whole time, and Sidious' attention was focused on Windu the whole time. They were effectively following your proposed tactic. Sidious attacked Fisto and Windu moved in to assist him, taking the brunt of the attack while Fisto engaged him from behind. However a simply flourish was all it took to keep Fisto out of the picture while holding off Sidious.
No, Windu tried to move behind Sidious to attack him from different angles, which let Fisto need to face Sidious head on.

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And your comparisons between game mechanics and actual lightsaber combat are again flawed. There are just too many additional variables that the game does not represent. But if you insist on drawing a comparison imagine Sidious and Windu as Lvl 50s and Fisto, Tinn and Kolar as level 10s. They could have a perfect tactic with Windu tanking while the others attacked from behind. But all it takes is and AOE or a brief diversion in attacks to take them out.
Team work could help a lot, like Anakin+Obi Wan VS Dooku in EP III, and a better example, Maul brothers VS Sidious, they did hold much longer than the other 3 when Sidious was dual wielding, is Savage and Maul much stronger than Tiin, Kolar and Fisto? Not likely.

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And finally concerning Force speed, regardless of what the novel says, it was evidently used. Even if distracted Kolar would be capable of deflecting an incoming attack, coming out with at most a glancing wound. But to simply rush and impale a master swordsman? Force speed is the only explanation, the same applies for Tinn who had no excuse for being cut down without blocking a single attack. Remember who we are dealing with here, Tinn, Kolar and Fisto were some of the greatest Jedi lightsaber duelists in the entire Order. Yet they were schooled by Sidious' superior Force abilities. Regardless their deaths happened, and the same would have happened with any other Jedi.
Force Speed is not Sith only, especially he had to change direction and kill Kolar. Sidious' speed didn't even own Maul brothers that badly, when the space was much bigger.
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Your also forgetting that Windu only uses Vaapad in combat. I find it very hard to believe that Windu was already channeling Sidious' rage before it was even directed at him - which refutes the entire nature of the form - and he therefore would not have had his abilities augmeneted in any way. Heck one could even say it took time for Windu to get into Vaapad's full flow, in fact I believe the novel makes reference to Windu - halfway through the battle - giving over fully to Vaapad. Again the Jedi underestimating their opponent played a part in their defeat.
And he was in combat, he could keep stick with Sidious, keep face him and take his attack, which would work greatly, Vaapad power up with the Dark Side power it faced.


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Unless of course your suggestion that Windu is blind and slow and simple just stood there while his comrades were chopped down for no reason, if that's the case then the Jedi stood no chance at all.
He simply wasn't well prepared, and didn't form a good team.

The question is simple. Is Savage and Maul much stronger than Tiin, Kolar and Fisto? No, and none of them are as powerful as Windu. So it means the four Jedi didn't form a good team.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
09.05.2013 , 01:50 PM | #30
To clear this up..


Quote:
He turned desperately to Saesee Tiin. "Master Tiin—you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?" Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk. Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor. Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps of the horns, severed just below the chin.

Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!"

The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor.

"It doesn't..." Agen Kolar swayed. His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbled from his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head. "...hurt..." He pitched forward onto his face, and lay still.

- Taken from ROTS novel
Sidious clearly speedblitzed the two of them before they could even react to what he was doing. The movie showed the same, abit differently sure but that is what happened....
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.