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NiM Withering Horror Enrage


bjpbjp's Avatar


bjpbjp
08.28.2013 , 02:20 PM | #1
My raid team has been struggling with this fight for a few nights now. 90% of the wipes are due to one of the following:

1. Enrage Timer
2. Too slow on little adds and guy in the red pool gets clobbered

#2 only happens occasionally so I'm not that worried about it. But we're consistently hitting enrage usually below 10% health on the boss. Then he burrows and pretty much one-shots everybody. Our DPS'ers are putting out between 2300 and 2700 depending on the attempt so while that's not fantastic it seems like it ought to be enough. We were able to kill Styrak HM consistently before we started NiM TFB.

We do not have an assassin tank which can be used to trivialize the dps part of the fight. I'm just wondering if we're not using our DPS team properly or we're focusing on the wrong targets.

We have 2 Marauders and hence 2 blood thirsts, a sorcerer, and a sniper. Everybody is in full 72 level gear. We blood thirst right away back-to-back and then again as soon as it's available. When the jealous male appears this is our strat:

1. All dps stays on boss while tank picks up the jealous male and gets his back up against a wall.
2. Once tank is in position both marauders jump to the jealous male - sniper puts armor reduction debuff on jealous male at the same time.
3. Little adds appear - either a healer or ranged dps stands in the pool and both ranged dps AOE little adds until dead
4. Melee dps stay on jealous male until dead
5. Ranged dps swap back to boss after little adds die
6. Once jealous male dies melee dps switches back to boss


We do not have the option to get an assassin tank so either we're doing something wrong or our dps players just aren't good enough. Does anybody have any helpful suggestions (besides dumb stuff like "suck less") that maybe we're missing here?

Thanks!!

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RikuvonDrake
08.28.2013 , 04:15 PM | #2
Some stuff that we do is that we have all DPS on boss until he moves and then everyone moves over to the jealous male, it's also very important that the adds are nuked down fast with pre-casted orbitals and continued lightning storms. I think that in general, your DPS is slightly low and at least the sniper should be able to get above 3k DPS, on my gunslinger I get at 3.5k+ at each try. Marauders should also be able to get above 2.8k, I remember when we were progressing on this boss when Nightmare mode came and I was able to get to around 3k DPS with saber throw on adds with full 72 gear.

If you are having people with unoptimized gear, do some Hardmodes to fix this issus and then come back and see if you can get around it, if it is the enrage timer that is the issue, your DPS is to low. So either work on rotations or get more gear =)
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dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
08.28.2013 , 04:36 PM | #3
if u are hitting enrage, you should have a mara stay on the boss the whole time, if not both of them. the sniper and sorc can handle the adds with their aoe and the sniper should be able to kill the male after the adds are down (with help form sorc). try not to have maras get in the red.

just ideas i think might help

Grimsblood's Avatar


Grimsblood
08.28.2013 , 04:36 PM | #4
I am not sure what you have your sniper doing. But you can nuke the adds a bit faster in a few ways:

1) If he is not, Orbital should be saved for the adds only.
2) Snipers have an AoE Grenade that hits 5 Targets.
3) If the Sniper is not, it can switch to any spec but Marksmen and get another AoE ability.

Your Sorc Can:

1) If madness make sure the Death Field is used on the group.
2) Lightning Storm should be laid on to it till adds are dead.
3) If Lightning, Make sure the proc'ed AoE is used on add group.


These are ways to maximize your AoE DPS and get your two ranged back on boss. When everything is said and done, the problem lies with your damage dealers not doing their job right. Another small note, this fight is about 4 and a half minutes...You will only get the use of one Blood Thirst per Mara if done right. Once the boss dips into its soft enrage is when I would have them use it or right off the bat with ALL offensive CD's on ALL dps going (Tanks may complain about threat, risky move if they can not hold it).
DPS is science. Healing is art. Tanking is strategy.
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Saphyria - Level 55 Sniper - FenrÓr - Level 55 Gunslinger

Carlenux's Avatar


Carlenux
08.28.2013 , 05:20 PM | #5
for 8 man, i would disagree with Above post ^ on the orbital... use your orbital on boss always to buff the dps... on this kind of fights there are two ways of doing it, doing it "right" for you to kill the boss, or Overcomplicating it And / Or Buffing numbers (Aka Saving AoEs like orbital on adds)...

To do it right: first of all small adds should never, or almost never, even reach the red pool... you want all 4 dps on boss (including all orbitals).. male spawns, tank swap, tank gets aggro get to a wall and hold.. all Dps stay on boss, as soon as add spawn, everyone swap to adds (2 marauders assuming both carnage, with a gore window + DST smash Sweeping is like 75% of its hp) sniper grenade + sorc either chain lightning (if proced) or Death field (if adds are not close to dieing, since its a big buff dmg on boss) then swap right away and kill male.

there are two mistakes in your set up, first is thinking marauders have no kind of AoE, which is false, annihilation have less, but still can do some... and second is splitting dps, splitting dps NEVER gives you better DPS results, you have to see.. what do you want to achieve? avoid enrage on boss? ok this means you need more dps, how do you increase your dps?: 1) killing small adds faster = less heal = more heal dps... 4 dps destroying male in 5-10 secs = 3 classes with Executes to kill faster AND adds tank dps (which should be around 700-800 i guess for you) more time on the boss.

in other words, fights are simple, if you make them simple, when you add "more" stuff for people to do: "Male spawn.. mdps on male.. rdps on adds, healers splitting heals on 3 different people, wasting heavy hitter (Death field OR orbital) on something thats not your enrage problem ( adds)... then having sniper wasting time multi targeting male ++ shatter shot, to swap then to boss... you are adding like 5 more stuff to worry about than you should, making heals harder, and encouraging people to do more stuff that cause them to make more mistakes.

fight rotation: Start orbitals pre casting, your tank has 3-4 available taunts on start before male shows up, no tank swap required, should not lose aggro --- male spawn, dps stay on boss... adds spawn, rdps on pool or healer 4dps burn adds quick + instantly swap to male, burn both things quick, back on boss... repeat 3 times. Save heavy hitter (orbital or Death field) for boss.... Cleanse RIGHT away, dont worry about "moving" the dot hits for like 6k tick on you, the yellow circle hits for like 1.5k if u stand on it, you dont need to "move" or group will die, you see it, you cleanse it right away, people move, less healing = more healer dps. = no enrage
Hmaull // Carlenx // Carlenix // Pyrotec // Invinc // Hwynn

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Bunions
08.28.2013 , 06:21 PM | #6
post above me has some good points but also some things I would disagree with. Annihiliation/Watchman have very little AOE damage and is a gigantic waste of DPS if they are running to the small adds, they can easily just throw 50% of their aoe damage (twin saber throw) on the small adds while they are moving to the jealous male. I do agree that cleansing people in their spots right away rather than running to a wall/edge will help keep DPS on the boss.

When my group was first doing this we would have similar problems (enrage @ 5%). I'm assuming all your DPS use attack adrenals? That would be #1. Another way we found to keep DPS on the boss is that the first red pool only has 5 adds (compared to I believe 10 for 2nd and 3rd red pool). So we would have a healer go in the first pool and only ONE range dps on the small adds while the other range dps stayed on the boss all the way until the 2nd red pool. For 2nd and 3rd red pool we would have a range dps in the pool and both RDPS would kill the small adds while MDPS killed male as normal. This was enough to push us over the edge and beat the enrage.

Also you might want to consider having your 2nd mara/sent wait to use blood/inspiration until he pops back up from his first burrow as there is really no way that 2nd mara/sent is gonna be able to use bloodthirst/inspiration a 2nd time.

NoFishing's Avatar


NoFishing
08.28.2013 , 06:22 PM | #7
A few points to consider. Most important one is last.

- You didn't mention what class your tanks are, but if they are juggs, don't bother burdening your sniper with putting out his armor debuff. The juggs will take care of it.

- Make sure your sniper is using orbital strike on the 3rd set of adds, and probably the 2nd set as well. For the first set it matters less because there are fewer adds so OS's limitless targets is less of an advantage. If you an operative healer, have them orbital the first set of adds, while the healing is still relatively tame.

- Make sure the sniper takes a turn in the pool. When it is his turn, have him entrench, and bring the male over near the pool to share in the AoE.

- Consider having the maras stay on the boss the entire time. Let the ranged DPS switch to the male after the adds are dead. All that matters is the male dies before the next one spawns, and they should be able to accomplish that.

And most important: How are you dealing with slime? My guess is you are doing the HM strat of having ranged DPS and healers run to the walls before cleansing. If so, don't, you are losing a ton of DPS time by running around. Have ranged DPS and healers group loosely in the middle, and just cleanse them where they are. This way, everyone just has to move a short distance out of the yellow circles. You can still overlap them though. Depending on my health, when I have slime I will take a walk through the yellow circle to drop them on top of each other.

bjpbjp's Avatar


bjpbjp
08.28.2013 , 07:04 PM | #8
Our tanks are a Jugg and PT. We cleanse the slime by having the person move very slightly to the side while everybody else generally stays stacked.

Thanks for all of the suggestions - much of it makes a lot of sense. We'll be trying these changes out Thursday.

Rahizm's Avatar


Rahizm
08.28.2013 , 07:44 PM | #9
So you have 2 melee and 2 ranged.

I'd advise the following:

- 1 melee on boss non-stop: should be your highest melee DPS.
- Ranged deal with the babies, then with the male.
- 1 melee on jealous male *as soon as it spawns*.
- Make sure that no male spawns as you enter the last phase. This means that you *have* to burn the boss as soon as a male + baby set of adds dies (somewhere around 20%).

Also, the DPS should be able to put out more than 2500 DPS. 2300 DPS is, imo, low. There should not be a reason to have DPS that low, especially NOT for range DPS and also not for melee. If they do between 2300 and 2700 DPS that means their DPS is just low, because they get the chance to AOE adds (which should bring their numbers to around 3000). Please consider this.

Also, is your team of DPS optimized? If not, you have an answer.
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Grimsblood's Avatar


Grimsblood
08.28.2013 , 10:49 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Carlenux View Post
for 8 man, i would disagree with Above post ^ on the orbital... use your orbital on boss always to buff the dps... on this kind of fights there are two ways of doing it, doing it "right" for you to kill the boss, or Overcomplicating it And / Or Buffing numbers (Aka Saving AoEs like orbital on adds)...

To do it right: first of all small adds should never, or almost never, even reach the red pool... you want all 4 dps on boss (including all orbitals).. male spawns, tank swap, tank gets aggro get to a wall and hold.. all Dps stay on boss, as soon as add spawn, everyone swap to adds (2 marauders assuming both carnage, with a gore window + DST smash Sweeping is like 75% of its hp) sniper grenade + sorc either chain lightning (if proced) or Death field (if adds are not close to dieing, since its a big buff dmg on boss) then swap right away and kill male.

there are two mistakes in your set up, first is thinking marauders have no kind of AoE, which is false, annihilation have less, but still can do some... and second is splitting dps, splitting dps NEVER gives you better DPS results, you have to see.. what do you want to achieve? avoid enrage on boss? ok this means you need more dps, how do you increase your dps?: 1) killing small adds faster = less heal = more heal dps... 4 dps destroying male in 5-10 secs = 3 classes with Executes to kill faster AND adds tank dps (which should be around 700-800 i guess for you) more time on the boss.

in other words, fights are simple, if you make them simple, when you add "more" stuff for people to do: "Male spawn.. mdps on male.. rdps on adds, healers splitting heals on 3 different people, wasting heavy hitter (Death field OR orbital) on something thats not your enrage problem ( adds)... then having sniper wasting time multi targeting male ++ shatter shot, to swap then to boss... you are adding like 5 more stuff to worry about than you should, making heals harder, and encouraging people to do more stuff that cause them to make more mistakes.

fight rotation: Start orbitals pre casting, your tank has 3-4 available taunts on start before male shows up, no tank swap required, should not lose aggro --- male spawn, dps stay on boss... adds spawn, rdps on pool or healer 4dps burn adds quick + instantly swap to male, burn both things quick, back on boss... repeat 3 times. Save heavy hitter (orbital or Death field) for boss.... Cleanse RIGHT away, dont worry about "moving" the dot hits for like 6k tick on you, the yellow circle hits for like 1.5k if u stand on it, you dont need to "move" or group will die, you see it, you cleanse it right away, people move, less healing = more healer dps. = no enrage
Really? I can't help but feel something passive aggressive nature in that. Your points actually function better in 16 then 8; since we have more then enough Orbitals and will loose tics on our damage. In 8 man, you do not (or at least should not).

This method may put out a significant amount of "fast" damage. However, if a dps has to spend time moving and not triggering the GCD they loose damage. Since maras that are not Rage have only 1 gap closer...they will be walking and loosing damage just to activate 1 Smash and then be useless on the adds (Since Saber throw can be done from range).

Wrong. First, all classes have AoE....just certain ones have more effective single target. Why hold back valuable single target build up and damage to do mediocre (at best) AoE (This is what good melee do to pad their numbers, not effectively kill something). Second, splitting dps is ALWAYS more effective unless you are fighting timed and triggered phases. If I play a spec that has a long wind up time to deal damage and I switch to a burn target I will get half way through my rotation when it dies. I will just have lost the value of my time and GCD since my damage never finished. You state that to avoid enrage, you must kill the adds faster. You do that with Orbital. It comes of CD every 60 seconds and the adds come up every 60 (give or take ~5). It will do the MOST damage to the adds.

Once the adds are dead, your ranged can make the decision to go back to the boss or switch to the Jealous male. This decision will be based upon how much health it has left and what the wind up time is of the rDPS's spec.


What you are not understanding is that even though Death Field and Orbital are heavy hitters...they will do more damage on a group then single target. The more damage on the group in the shortest amount of GCD's = More GCD's on Boss or Jealous Male.

NiM is about forcing each person to play perfect and handle more. If you are looking for anything else...there is HM and SM.


Just about the only thing here that makes sense (I covered the rest in the stuff above) is to cleanse and then move vs. move and then cleanse. However, the reason is wrong. Its function is not to lessen the heal load so the healers can dps. The function is to allow the dps more time on the boss and less GCD's wasted. If a dps has to take 10 seconds to run out and back in he has lost almost 7 GCD's......those 7 abilities will do far more damage then a healer trying to dps (remember, healers do not have 100% accuracy).


The TL;DR version of this is that you have given advice that may help them understand the fight better BUT it will reduce dps. To maximize dps you need to be triggering the GCD as much as possible AND hitting as many targets with damage in the shortest window possible.

Some math:
Spoiler
DPS is science. Healing is art. Tanking is strategy.
Hippolytŗ - Level 50 Sentinel - Grimsblood - Level 55 Sage
Saphyria - Level 55 Sniper - FenrÓr - Level 55 Gunslinger