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QQ-free Class Balance Discussion Thread

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
QQ-free Class Balance Discussion Thread

Underpowered's Avatar


Underpowered
08.27.2013 , 04:14 PM | #1
Seeing as how there's a lot of heat and finger-pointing in Top 3 Answer thread that's exhausting everyone involved (including our class reps) and drowning out the few good posts that focus on class balance, I think it might be prudent to start a new thread specifically for class balance issues, moving forward from the dev responses we've been given.

Simple Rules:
1. No whining about Top 3 Q&A here. You want to criticize the devs, class reps, the questions or anything else about the game, do it in Top 3 Answers thread.
2. Let's try to keep the witty H2F one-liners and memes out of here. There's a hundred other places to do that
3. Talking about how the next set of questions should be phrased is allowed since phrasing is key for a favourable response, but all suggestions should be civil.

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Psi/Nibbon, I'm going to offer how you could continue to press these issues as succinctly as possible for maximum results, in the same order as they were addressed in the Q&A.

1. Pressing for more defensive CDs is a lost cause; the devs have said no (for now.) I'm also inclined to agree that more DCDs kind of fly against the face of natural Sorc class design. We’re more designed to kite, not facetank, so you might want to consider asking for buffs to existing kiting tools. Lightning already has sufficient defensive measures in the form of aoe roots and ccs (to the point of being almost a game changer in ranked) and it was buffed significantly in 2.0 so the devs won't give you more buffs in Lightning realistically but who knows.

There is room for improvement in Madness though. I suggest you press the issue of the removal of instant Whirlwind in 2.0. Ask specifically by what metrics the devs found instant Whirlwind gave Madness Sorcerers too much control (and specifically Madness Sorcerers), and insist that instant WW was a defining offensive feature and also a necessary survival tool for the Madness tree. If you want to be extremely poignant, suggest that instant Whirlwind may have been mistakenly removed from the Sorc Madness tree when Madness and Hybrid Assassins were deemed to have had far too much instant CC and utility (Electrocute, WW, Mind Trap, Spike).

2. The dev response did not address dot removal protection possibly because they probably have no proper rebuttal for it. Focus on this soft spot; don’t let them brush it under the rug. Emphasize that all dot-heavy DPS class specs in the game (Madness, Annihilation, Lethality) are currently irrelevant in high-level Ranked play. If you want to be extremely poignant, ask if it is BW's intention to endorse the idea of entirely ignored specs in PvP. Also argue that even the one spec WITH dot removal protection (Lethality) is still considered relatively weak, and as such, providing dot removal protection to Sorcs will not make Sorcs too strong but will help (and I think BW will only give this to Madness, sorry Lightning...but ask anyway).

3. The devs have stated they’re not going to buff Madness force regen in any way except for a possible cost reduction for Static Barrier. This is literally the ONLY real concession they've given us in any of the 3 answers. You have to focus on the only bone they're giving us but twist it to our advantage. Consider the following:

Lowered cost on Static Barrier would actually solve a HUGE amount of the Force Management issue for Madness. 65 Force cost is insane; you can't recoup that in any reasonable sense. But we should not accept BW's fine print of lowered absorption unless it’s an extremely favourable trade (like 50% less cost for 10% less absorption), but in all likelihood BW will only consider an equal % cost/absorb trade, which is actually a NERF if you think about it. But if Barrier receives an unconditional cost reduction, it will make our raid/group healing with Barrier in a DPS spec too easy and thus OP.

What I suggest is a compromise that will help alleviate Force cost issues in Madness without making bubble OP: Upgrade one of our lackluster 2nd tier skills (Metaphysical Alacrity or Mental Defense) to include the following effect: Casting Force Armor on yourself now refunds X Force (I suggest 30-35).

This will make us not go force bankrupt as quickly when taking damage, but at the same time leaves the “skill cap” for resource management high when trying to bring raid-wide bubble healing. Putting the cost reduction up high in the Madness tree means no one can abuse this with Lightning Effusion or the Static Barrier cost reduction skill in the Corruption tree.

Lastly, regardless of what questions you ultimately decide to ask next time, I strongly recommend you to ask more focused and smaller-scale questions the next time around is to make the devs feel like we’re not QQing about everything; to keep requests for buffs reasonable; and most importantly to force them to give very specific answers as opposed to the wide-sweeping and uninformative answers given the first time around.
Malchelosse / Dany Stormborn / Daney Stormboner , Elite Warlord Sage of many names
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jedi covenant, formerly from canderous ordo, formely from juyo server

Riincewind's Avatar


Riincewind
08.27.2013 , 04:46 PM | #2
My thoughts would be to maybe ask a explantion of the devs of lightnings playstyle in pvp and how they came up with it. It seems to be a true ranged hybrid in all sense of the words, its a hybrid turret/kiting dps who can also heal. It needs to stand still and also kite. As a lightning player, I can kite some of the worse players easily, but when it comes to the better players the tools are not quite there for kiting the ones who have a clue about pvp. It has some tools to kite. but they are a little weird, overloads knockback is too short but it roots which is good, force speed which allows us to escape as long as we can not get rubber banded back to where we came from. We have 2 sloves and second root on CL, but that we need to proc to use and getting that proc is very rng if you get it at all. We have no protection against any of the roots most other classes have and it seems the classes that cause the most issues for me are melee with the amount of gap closers in game. If we were to just kite, I think it could work, but seemingly we have to be a turret to dps, we cant dps on the move really as what we have is well pitiful and wont kill anyone. I dont really have a issue with the dps we do in pvp, thats fine, our burst I love and when we get the time to cast we can do it well, but its getting that time to dps against people who have a clue about pvp that causes issues. I would love to know where the idea for the kiting turret came from, and maybe in that explanation we can get a idea of what they are willing to give us as right now we need that one extra thing to make us competive truly without having to rely on everyone else on our team to do well.

Im not the most elegant of speakers so that will appear like a wall of text. I dont claim to be the greatest at pvp, but I know my spec well. As for it being a question for litghting i think it may even get better results that complaings abotu our glass armour or wishing more cannon for us.

Solloby's Avatar


Solloby
08.27.2013 , 04:53 PM | #3
Perhaps an ability is needed that allows Sorcs to move while casting for a few seconds. It would have a reasonable cd, and allow Sorcs to keep doing their job while running from an enemy.

Because let's face it, Sorcs can't facetank, they are the weakest class in the game when it comes to dealing with incoming damage. But if a lightning Sorc is constantly on the move to avoid facetanking, he's not dpsing and is basically self-cced. This would also help madness/hybrid and corruption Sorcs to heal themselves while kiting.

Unsure how healer Sorcs are feeling in PVE, I assume adding mobility to them isn't going to help if their main issue is force management though.

I also wouldn't mind if Force Speed removed and/or was immune to slows/snares.

ShadowCX's Avatar


ShadowCX
08.27.2013 , 06:39 PM | #4
Disclosure: These ideas are from a PVE based perspective. They are also not intended to address our lack of cooldowns but more to address our needs in the damage/resource management area.

Healing Stance: Lowers the cost of purge by 15. Purge now removed negative physical effect and heals target for 552-775. Healing skills have a 50% change to restore 5 force, this effect many only occur once every 1 seconds.

Replaces Sith Purity in skill tree.

Lightning stance: LS/TB have a 60% chance and LS has a 20% chance when dealing damage to finish the cooldown and CL and your next CL instant cast with 0 Cost. Additionally all lightning damage skills have a 40% chance do an additional 250 internal damage. Dark heal and Dark Infusions healing effects are lowered by 50% while in lightning stance

Replaces Lightning Storm in skill tree

Madness Stance: when you FL deals damage you have a 30% chance to gain Wrath, causing your next LS or CD to activate instantly and deal 35% damage. Additionally critical hits from affliction or Crushing darkness grant you a stack of (inster skill name here) Reducing the cost of your next FL or CL by 75%, stacks up to 3 times and can only be granted every 1.5 seconds. Dark Heal and Dark Infusions healing effect are reduced by 50%

Replaces Wrath in the skill tree.


For the healer tree its a very simple boost. Get some of the force back from your heals to help reduce the amount of times you have to use consumption. this would allow alittle more healing up time but not as big as the other changes seeing as they arnt loosing anything for it.

In lighting its just a simple damage increase at the cost of your heals. BW does believe that we have utility with out off healing so we simply give up that ability for a DPS bump.

In madness its the same drawback as lightning however they would get a cost reduction to costly skills in exchange which should help overall with force management (I don't play madness so I could be wrong on this next point) It should also be a DPS increase by allowing more uptime doing damage instead of managing your resources.



Feel free to rip these apart, its just a very simple idea to give us minor yet needed boosts.

Stormhuntr's Avatar


Stormhuntr
08.27.2013 , 07:29 PM | #5
I havent really posted because to be honest I dont really care either way. I play my sorc. to the best of my ability. With that being said alot of my guildies have been talking about adding a mass affliction to the madness tree or as learned ability. It would really help with spreading dots out and an ability that would really make madness stand out. But eh my 2 cents.

DarthFenris's Avatar


DarthFenris
08.27.2013 , 11:01 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Stormhuntr View Post
I havent really posted because to be honest I dont really care either way. I play my sorc. to the best of my ability. With that being said alot of my guildies have been talking about adding a mass affliction to the madness tree or as learned ability. It would really help with spreading dots out and an ability that would really make madness stand out. But eh my 2 cents.
I have been saying this alot lately for example lethality regardless of its flavor sniper/op get an aoe dot, why not madness sorc that would save us alot of force right there by not having to tab to every player on an enemy team or every mob in a flashpoint and hit AF which eats up time and force especially in a pvp situation where you might accidentally dot someone already dotted. Personally I love madness as it is except for that one point of no aoe dot. Maybe add a dot to our lightning aoe for only Madness tree or something, or even give us a proc that makes it dot people so that way we aren't just running around spamming our aoe dot.
Asta'rot 55 Scoundrel Heals, Fenris 55 Shadow Dps

Jelutte 55 Sorc Dps, Valdisi 55 Merc Dps, Fenris 55 Jug Dps, Asta Sniper, Zamion Marauder

usernamexists's Avatar


usernamexists
08.28.2013 , 01:07 AM | #7
Allot of people have commented on our inconvenient self healing and the cost of bubble. Just a thought, put a HoT on our bubble. Makes it worth the cost, and gets us just a little closer to some of our healing goals. It is a realistic solution. i don't believe we need as much of a healing change as some. This has nothing to do with that
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Zenocyde's Avatar


Zenocyde
08.28.2013 , 01:58 AM | #8
Spoiler

i actually really enjoy the idea of stances. however there should be a severe negative side to switching between them, such as a high force cost, or long interruptible cast time.

i'll make a comment on each of the stances presented.

Healing Stance: it definitely should have a 'cannot happen more than once a second' effect because of all of the healing ticks sorcs have, however only 5 force? it would have to proc on cd 10 seconds in a row to just about equal 1 consumption, pending on set bonus. hell, i'd still take it, some is better than none.

Lightning stance: the 10 second cd needs to transfer as well, way too much aoe damage potential without it. i like the additional proc chance on lightning attacks.

Madness stance: with full madness CL isn't even an option, i'd suggest having the new buff work on FL, DF, and Affliction. as far as single target dps goes, giving madness more energy options won't increase dps. some suggestions for dps increase: the stance lowers the cast time of FL by .2 seconds. Change the duration of the increased CD talent from (1/2) to (2/4) and change the proc in focal lightning - force lightning from (10%/20%) to (15%/30%). Have Lightning burns apply a 10 second 20% armor debuff.


hybrid users would be saddened by this change however.

also as a personal preference, give sorcs the option to not have to use lightsabers! :3
Ryz - hmd MAGENTA

ShadowCX's Avatar


ShadowCX
08.28.2013 , 04:17 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Zenocyde View Post
i actually really enjoy the idea of stances. however there should be a severe negative side to switching between them, such as a high force cost, or long interruptible cast time.

i'll make a comment on each of the stances presented.

Healing Stance: it definitely should have a 'cannot happen more than once a second' effect because of all of the healing ticks sorcs have, however only 5 force? it would have to proc on cd 10 seconds in a row to just about equal 1 consumption, pending on set bonus. hell, i'd still take it, some is better than none.

Lightning stance: the 10 second cd needs to transfer as well, way too much aoe damage potential without it. i like the additional proc chance on lightning attacks.

Madness stance: with full madness CL isn't even an option, i'd suggest having the new buff work on FL, DF, and Affliction. as far as single target dps goes, giving madness more energy options won't increase dps. some suggestions for dps increase: the stance lowers the cast time of FL by .2 seconds. Change the duration of the increased CD talent from (1/2) to (2/4) and change the proc in focal lightning - force lightning from (10%/20%) to (15%/30%). Have Lightning burns apply a 10 second 20% armor debuff.


hybrid users would be saddened by this change however.

also as a personal preference, give sorcs the option to not have to use lightsabers! :3
My ideas were pretty much just a basic framework of something to throw at the Devs. All the stances should be high enough in the tree that a cost for switching wouldn't really be needed seeing as your going to have to throw a lot of points into each tree to get 2 and give up a lot just to try to hybrid.

As far as your feedback on the stances themselves. I agree 5 force every second isn't a lot, but its also added at the cost of nothing so free force is free force imo

I tried to copy the text of the original skills as close as possible, sorry I missed the cooldown for lightning but totally agree it needs to stay.


With madness I meant for it to be on Crushing Darkness not Chain Lightning lol. Im not going to really go into your response as Ive never played the tree so don't know much about it however I will say that if giving ideas we should try not too add damage AND resource management into the same skill if tweaking the tree. The idea is never to make us OP but bring us closer to the performance of other classes. I wouldn't want us to be the next sniper or mara, merely considered more viable.

The idea of buffing classes has been a very hot topic on my guilds (E) TS with myself and a few others and we have all come to the conclusion that the best way for the Devs to go about bringing the reguard classes up to the level of other DPS classes would be to make small improvements over time. That way if the buffed class was to get to the point of overpowered you would only have to revert back to what the class was 1 or 2 buffs before instead of just hitting it with the nerf stick.

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
08.28.2013 , 05:49 AM | #10
My ideas are limited to easily executable tweaks to current abilities/talents which do little to change the overall balance.

-Switch the position of Force Suffusion and Fadeout in the Corruption tree.
PvE DPS do not take Force Suffusion and Healers are split on the talent. PvP DPS would only take it as a survivability/utility tool. Fadeout is also mostly a survivability/utility tool and is seldom taken by PvE healers (I take it for NiM Dash'Roode but it is not essential). By allowing all specs access to this talent we would be given the kiting tool we need but at a cost of 2 talent points which seems a fair trade off.

-Increase the Force restored by Sith Efficacy to 1.5 or 2%.
This will alleviate some of the issues the spec has and allow for the usage of Lightning Strike in the rotation (which has many talents in the Madness tree but is currently underused due to prohibitive cost). This would somewhat increase Madness DPS but it would still likely lag behind Lightning and allow for better Force Management when under pressure (PvP) while sacrificing some DPS (essentially you would have to make the choice whether to continue Force Lightning or use a Lightning Strike trading DPS for Force Management). I am wary asking for Corruption buff in this regard as I have not run into issues with this spec and given that Force Surge stacks, the amount of Force that can be quickly regained is rather ridiculous.

I have had other ideas but they have too much of an balance effect.
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