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[Sniper Gunslinger Initiative] An opportunity to change Laze Target presents itself

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Gunslinger / Sniper
[Sniper Gunslinger Initiative] An opportunity to change Laze Target presents itself
 

Jekan's Avatar


Jekan
08.27.2013 , 04:25 PM | #131
Quote: Originally Posted by Mythurin View Post
If the CD is 3min I want a One Shot One Kill Mentality out of it. Some things I would prefer with it:
  • 100% Armor Pen. There will be a KB included in the shot like MM. Range of KB to be determined.
  • I want the shot to pass through and hit another Player/NPC. Max it will Pen through is 3 players with the first being 100%DMG, 2nd 50% DMG, 3rd 25%. DMG can be an Auto Crit of course.
  • If the player is below 25% HP then the 1st player/NPC it hits is an auto Kill.
  • Have to be out of Combat to use. This is to "Zero the scope, Aim and Setup" kinda like the animation as is now.
  • Lastly, leave as is. Or possibly make Lazed Snipe and Target Acquired work hand in hand somehow.

-J
So, you want us to have HK-51's execute ability? LOL, don't see that happening.
Jekana - 55 Sniper(Eng/Leth) | T'vor - 50 Powertech (Shield) | Docfeelgood - 44 Sorc (Healer)
Jnx - 37 Gunslinger(SS)

I've heard there are worse snipers on the Bastion than me, but I don't believe it. I elevate being a scrub to a whole new level.
Eternal Dominion
Ghostbusters

paowee's Avatar


paowee
08.27.2013 , 04:40 PM | #132
If you guys are really going to start a thread about player suggestions for Laze Target (those that do not agree with what BW proposed) can i get a deadline for it? Initially i'd submit mine next week and i think if you guys are going to do this, submitting it alongside this "thread" would be the best way to go at it so the devs can look em through side by side.

To be honest i think it would be cool to see change(s) to a class brought about by something other than noise and flaming (looks at sorcerer forums). i wonder how it would've been like if snipers were the underdogs in this game (in pve)

EDIT: I started a new thread for Angels outside http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=675601
Republic < Intrepid > The Harbinger slinger sage vanguard dps
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Heal-To-Full's Avatar


Heal-To-Full
08.27.2013 , 05:14 PM | #133
Quote: Originally Posted by AngelFluttershy View Post
The point I was making is that if we do have serious discussions about how Laze Target could change, we need to recognize what its suppose to accomplish (i.e. Is it for extra burst, sustained DPS boost, added utility, etc).
Sniper sustain with perfect play is about where it should be. It's not the absolute best, all things considered, but in terms of whittling down a boss snipers work. I wouldn't mind small increases, but nor would I ask for them, and I don't see the devs *purposefully* working to add sustain.

I would like Sniper class changes changes to add more flexibility. More ways to play a Sniper that still come within 2-3% of the perfect rotation. This is exactly what Laze lacks: it's only useful in one spec in one kind of content. Snipe is simply too expensive for too small a damage gain versus free attacks to spend energy on it, unless you get MM energy boosts and PvE set bonus.

Extra burst is another thing Snipers need. Despite probably being meant to be a 'bursty' class, today Sniper burst has trouble coming close to not only Marauders, but even Juggs, a class that remains a potent off-tank even in DPS spec.


Quote: Originally Posted by AngelFluttershy View Post
However, this does ignore change for PvE which there are Snipers/Slingers who'd like to see alteration there. Do you have any ideas how this change could be accompanied with a PvE change?
The same as proposed - have it affect Ambush, SoS, EP, TD or Cull.
I see these changes as complementary. The reason is that an auto-crit will already ignore some defenses, enough for PvE, it just needs to ignore the defense relevant in PvP, and that is guard. So it won't make Snipers parse higher by any measurable amount.

And it's something I can see in the game.
"Increases the critical hit chance of your next Ambush, Series of Shots, Explosive Probe, Takedown or Cull by 100% and makes it unable to be avoided, mitigated or intercepted."


It's something that can happen. It's something that will change very little in terms of averages. It simply completes the auto-crit purpose of Laze Target - making sure that your next strike hits hard - by first making sure that it hits your target at all. On a 2-3 minute cooldown, such assurance is really called for.

The "intercepted" part affects PvP only, and again it doesn't actually change the total damage done, just how it's applied. Right now "how it's applied" is what keeps Snipers from being competitive with Maras and even Juggs. While the AoE effect of their Smash doesn't bypass Guard, what it does is damage both the tank and his guard, resulting in the tank taking 150% of its damage. Snipers can't match that, they still won't be able to, but at least that one non-interceptible shot per arena round (that's how rare a 3-minute CD would make it) would be useful for them. LT+Snipe as it stands just isn't.
What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence of the Sith race and the Sith people, the glory of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the Empire, so that we may fulfill the mission allotted us by the Force itself. Everything must be examined from this point of view and used or rejected according to its utility.

AngelFluttershy's Avatar


AngelFluttershy
08.27.2013 , 05:16 PM | #134
Quote: Originally Posted by Svii View Post
Great post by Angel, which are my thoughts but not able to articulate

Really appreciate how much time and effort Paowee spend to support the Sniper/Slinger community. Also, we have a great collection of level headed people in here. Kudos to you all!
Thanks Svii, and of course always big thanks to Paowee.
Quote: Originally Posted by Mythurin View Post
If the CD is 3min I want a One Shot One Kill Mentality out of it. Some things I would prefer with it:
  • 100% Armor Pen. There will be a KB included in the shot like MM. Range of KB to be determined.
  • I want the shot to pass through and hit another Player/NPC. Max it will Pen through is 3 players with the first being 100%DMG, 2nd 50% DMG, 3rd 25%. DMG can be an Auto Crit of course.
  • If the player is below 25% HP then the 1st player/NPC it hits is an auto Kill.
  • Have to be out of Combat to use. This is to "Zero the scope, Aim and Setup" kinda like the animation as is now.
  • Lastly, leave as is. Or possibly make Lazed Snipe and Target Acquired work hand in hand somehow.

-J
9/10 for creativity, but needs more instant cast, double ticking Orbital Strikes.

Having Laze Target and Target Acquired working directly off of each other sounds interesting, but could limit the versatility of each ability. Plus, they already can work with one another since the armor pen bonus from Target Acquired does benefit a lazed Snipe. However, I agree that if the cooldown is three minutes or longer it better be something ridiculously awesome, like we could shoot our mainhand and throw our blade/off-hand blaster at the enemy to have it do internal damage then have the blade/off-hand regenerate in our hand. If you played Borderlands 2, think of Tediore weapon reloads.

Quote: Originally Posted by paowee View Post
If you guys are really going to start a thread about player suggestions for Laze Target (those that do not agree with what BW proposed) can i get a deadline for it? Initially i'd submit mine next week and i think if you guys are going to do this, submitting it alongside this "thread" would be the best way to go at it so the devs can look em through side by side.

To be honest i think it would be cool to see change(s) to a class brought about by something other than noise and flaming (looks at sorcerer forums). i wonder how it would've been like if snipers were the underdogs in this game (in pve)

EDIT: I started a new thread for Angels outside http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=675601
The only way something ever gets done is with a due date, so I'd agree to this. Submitting these two together would be cool too! I'd recommend the date be next Friday, I'll be unavailable all this weekend due to PAX Prime so I won't be much help until after Monday.

Thanks for starting up the thread, I reserved a few spots for organizational use. I'll work on them and update you when they're done.

EDIT: Replied to B-Dick
Quote: Originally Posted by B-Dick View Post
Sniper sustain with perfect play is about where it should be. It's not the absolute best, all things considered, but snipers are solid. I wouldn't mind small increases, but nor would I ask for them, and I don't see the devs *purposefully* working to add sustain.

I would like Sniper class changes changes to add more flexibility. More ways to play a Sniper that still come within 2-3% of the perfect rotation. This is exactly what Laze lacks: it's only useful in one spec in one kind of content. Snipe is simply too expensive for too small a damage gain versus free attacks to spend energy on it, unless you get MM energy boosts and PvE set bonus.

Extra burst is another thing Snipers need. Despite probably being meant to be a 'bursty' class, today Sniper burst has trouble coming close to not only Marauders, but even Juggs, a class that remains a potent off-tank even in DPS spec.
We're on the same page, I agree with basically everything above. I also appreciate you giving me the PvP perspective, I only PvP in regulars in the off-time so my experience in that environment is low.

Quote: Originally Posted by B-Dick View Post
The same as proposed - have it affect Ambush, SoS, EP, TD or Cull.
I see these changes as complementary. The reason is that an auto-crit will already ignore some defenses, enough for PvE, it just needs to ignore the defense relevant in PvP, and that is guard. So it won't make Snipers parse higher by any measurable amount.

And it's something I can see in the game.
"Increases the critical hit chance of your next Ambush, Series of Shots, Explosive Probe, Takedown or Cull by 100% and makes it unable to be avoided or intercepted."


It's something that can happen. It's something that will change very little in terms of averages. It simply completes the auto-crit purpose of Laze Target - making sure that your next strike hits hard - by first making sure that it hits your target at all. On a 2 or 3 minute cooldown, such assurance is really called for. The "intercepted" part affects PvP only, and again it doesn't actually change the total damage.
That's a strong write-up, and I like your view on this topic. It's a much more eloquent fix for the cooldown than what I have thought up, and it's a bit more flexible in a spec's playstyle and rotation. I'd assume that the "avoided" tag in your ability description wouldn't apply to Dodge/Evasion, Force Shroud/Resilience, or similar effects? In other words, it can't ignore defensive cooldowns that are designed to have a 100% chance of avoided a certain attack?

Heal-To-Full's Avatar


Heal-To-Full
08.27.2013 , 06:11 PM | #135
Quote: Originally Posted by AngelFluttershy View Post
That's a strong write-up, and I like your view on this topic. It's a much more eloquent fix for the cooldown than what I have thought up, and it's a bit more flexible in a spec's playstyle and rotation. I'd assume that the "avoided" tag in your ability description wouldn't apply to Dodge/Evasion, Force Shroud/Resilience, or similar effects? In other words, it can't ignore defensive cooldowns that are designed to have a 100% chance of avoided a certain attack?
Of course not. First thought was that it would be implicit, i.e. absolute immunity trumps it. I think there are a few things in the game that "can not be...", but are by total defenses.

A more descriptive phrasing could be:
"Increases the critical hit chance of your next Ambush, Series of Shots, Explosive Probe, Takedown or Cull by 100% and makes it unable to be intercepted, avoided or mitigated by abilities that provide partial protection."

Either way, exact wording would be up to the developers, if this change is done, but this is understandable enough. We don't need a cheat, just a counter to PvP tanking and "can't kill me" cycling of defenses. Not a hard counter either, it still only a moderate bit of damage once in a long while, but it could start the work toward getting Snipers back into competitive PvP.

Right now, Smash Maras can finish off tanks at otherwise survivable hp, and they can do it easily, repeatably, twice a minute, with their full ease of rotation and AoE power; AP PTs are high up there as well. Letting Snipers do that, but to the guarded player instead of the tank, only once in two minutes, damaging a single target only, requiring correct setup, isn't much. It's balanced, it fits their role, it doesn't change the relative ranking, just narrows the gap, adds a little more reason to consider the class for ranked compositions.

As a regular 15-30-second cooldown, it would secure a very fitting role for Snipers as "healer killers". A
s a 2-minute cooldown it doesn't, but it lets them to occasionally participate in putting pressure on the enemy team rather than merely send more damage against their heals.
What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence of the Sith race and the Sith people, the glory of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the Empire, so that we may fulfill the mission allotted us by the Force itself. Everything must be examined from this point of view and used or rejected according to its utility.

CJNJ's Avatar


CJNJ
08.27.2013 , 06:24 PM | #136
Problem I find with adding SoS(and Cull) is that it goes from the "click it on CD" to "time when ya hit it" SoS and cull auto crits are much stronger then the other 3 choices, for every spec
CJuice Sandwich-lazy sage seer || Cmeat Sandwich- fat blind engi sniper
lil'cmeat Sandwich- it's a lil Cmeat! Gunslinger || Naked-snake- looks more like plissken, scoundrel
Laziness is a skill

paowee's Avatar


paowee
08.27.2013 , 08:08 PM | #137
Anywho if you haven't voted yet, please do.

BW's Laze Target or
Current Laze Target or
abstain.

If abstain check out Angels's thread outside.
Republic < Intrepid > The Harbinger slinger sage vanguard dps
swtorboard.org dps blog.class guides.end-game stuff
16 man | 8 man DPS leaderboards | Galactic Starfighter Records

Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
08.27.2013 , 11:19 PM | #138
I vote for BW's Laze Target or something similar to it.

I support a change to alter Laze Target/Smuggler's luck in a way that the developers have mentioned. I don't have much time to work on an elegant solution to this issue, but I think any change should have the following effects:

1) Allow the skill to provide more of a meaningful choice for players.
2) Slightly lower DPS of MM/Sharpshooter spec by about 20-30 DPS (even if this makes it useless damage-wise in this spec).
3) Slightly improve DPS of Dirty Fighting/Lethality and the hybrid.

My justifications for these points are as follows:

1) This is the main reason people even want to change the skill. It is a boring skill that does little to reward good play.
2) MM/Sharpshooter DPS is too high for being such an easy spec to play decently, having no ramp-up time, and having great survivability. I wouldn't mind a general slight nerf to MM/Sharpshooter spec in general to lower DPS by about 50-100.
3) DoT specs in general should always have slightly higher overall DPS than specs with ones without as they require more maintenance to keep up and are punished significantly during fights where enemies are untargetable. Currently, MM/Sharpshoter does almost exactly equal damage to Lethality and its hybrid, which should not be the case.
The Harbinger
Intrepid

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Arctyc's Avatar


Arctyc
08.28.2013 , 11:45 AM | #139
Change please.

Arctyc 50 Sniper

SOR
TOFN

Kenjer's Avatar


Kenjer
08.28.2013 , 04:40 PM | #140
I vote "yes" to the proposed change to laze target

Aeg - 55 sniper / POT5