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[Sniper Gunslinger Initiative] An opportunity to change Laze Target presents itself

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Gunslinger / Sniper
[Sniper Gunslinger Initiative] An opportunity to change Laze Target presents itself

Kaos_KidSWTOR's Avatar


Kaos_KidSWTOR
08.27.2013 , 12:23 PM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by paowee View Post
Yep i'll write you down in abstain.

Hmm.. i don't understand why some people would think this will make Laze Target even more useless :|.

Lazed EP for Engi
Lazed TD for Full Lethality

Lazed Snipe for both Engi and Lethality seems to be the underwhelming version of Laze Target. MM gets better use for the current Laze Target as far as sustained DPS (according to namesrtough and ssfish math around ~30 DPS over 5+ minutes).

Now i don't know how Lazed EP/TD with the increased cooldown will parse as Engi or Lethality spec, but i'll make sure i get this point across when i forward this to eric.

offtopic: i'm quite glad the class rep program worked out better for us than it did for the sorcs. I really think things can get done in this game a little bit much better if people would post and try to talk to the devs in a more mature way. Like i am sure (from my past experience, prior to getting this "Class Rep" forum title, that Eric and AmberGreen do in fact forward player concerns and i've been talking with both of them for quite a while (before the class rep). Since BW left us a question, i'm 100% positive that our inputs will be forwarded and heard by the devs (who gave us our top 3 answers).

Inputs namely:
1) A majority of the Sniper/Slinger forum community like BW's proposal to Laze Target
2) A major concern would be "nerfing" the ability by giving it a 3min cooldown.
2.a) i'll inquire if they are going to do some internal testing to see how their new laze target fares to the old laze target in terms of sustained DPS.
3) End goal is to have a new laze target with a 2min cd. Not 2min30seconds and hopefully... definitely not 3min cd.
4) If the new laze target has a 3min cooldown i think... ill pass and keep the current one

Anyone else agree with the above points?
The major reason why the changes would be useless is because of the CD change. If the CD is changed to like 45 seconds WITH the new changes. It would be more useful than now. but a 3 minute CD on an auto-crit? That's rediculous.

Zoom_VI's Avatar


Zoom_VI
08.27.2013 , 01:14 PM | #122
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaos_KidSWTOR View Post
The major reason why the changes would be useless is because of the CD change. If the CD is changed to like 45 seconds WITH the new changes. It would be more useful than now. but a 3 minute CD on an auto-crit? That's rediculous.
Considering several classes have zero autocrits, and several don't even have any offensive cooldowns at all.
Yes I will give you that Laze target seems a little out there, but I don't think it should be changed solely because right now snipers and gunslingers are so far ahead right now compared to other ranged classes and even melee dps, its not even funny.

I mean really mando's instant cast is useless for dps, and the no-cost on next ability cooldown is only for when you have screwed up your resources. Every class in the game has buttons that several of their specs don't use - its par for the course.
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Zoom_VI's Avatar


Zoom_VI
08.27.2013 , 01:36 PM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaos_KidSWTOR View Post
The major reason why the changes would be useless is because of the CD change. If the CD is changed to like 45 seconds WITH the new changes. It would be more useful than now. but a 3 minute CD on an auto-crit? That's rediculous.
Actually come to think of it, the reason they are pushing the cooldown up so much is specifically so it doesn't increase dps. Snipers are already the highest parsing class, giving them more dps would be rediculus particularly when they just told the second lowest parsing class, that their low dps are just "perception problems"
Crinn
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Quote: Originally Posted by Aves
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AngelFluttershy's Avatar


AngelFluttershy
08.27.2013 , 01:58 PM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by paowee
Most likely shunned. I doubt BW will change any ability based on player "submissions." They merely offered to consider changing Laze Target to Ambush/EP/TD (i guess since we asked about it) , but they'll have to increase its cooldown.
Quote: Originally Posted by paowee
They don't intend to redesign it at all. It's just something that came up since we asked about it in the Sniper Q&A. Trust me buffing Snipers is not in the list of things to fix for BW. This is just a bone tied to a string they threw our way. We can grab and bite it off or ignore it and they'll just yank it away.
First off I'd like to say I'm not picking on Paowee or anyone else, just his above posts hold a theme that a few posters seem to be supporting.

I'm getting the feeling that some of the players are supporting the brainstormed change to Laze Target that the Devs threw out because they'd take anything over nothing. As Paowee said, they threw us a bone on a string and we're chasing it, but is that how we really want to treat this opportunity? The Devs answered our question about Laze Target and showed that they'd be open for altering the ability a bit to better fit its designed purpose, but many of you are acting like the whole combat team sat down and gave us an ultimatum. I'm sure whoever sat down and wrote that question put that out there just to show us something they could do with it, not something they would or wanted to do with it in the first place.

I would suggest we take advantage of this opportunity, not just stop here. The community team gave us the platform to ask questions, the combat team answered our questions with an open-ended response for us to retort, and now its up to us to continue the discussion. Why stop at a suggestion they just came up with to flesh out their answer? Why can't we have a developing conversation about the purpose of Laze Target and what alterations could make it fit its designed purpose better? We already know that class balancing won't be coming until 2.5-2.6, so we have a lot of time to hold a strong discussion that would help the ability develop into something we can all be very happy with.

Let's put in the extra effort the combat team is and continue the discussion so we can go back to them with some really great input. Not only could this improve Laze Target beyond what was initially suggested, but this would set a precedent for the future where more back and forth between the combat team and player community could take place. We've got nothing to lose here and everything to gain.

Heal-To-Full's Avatar


Heal-To-Full
08.27.2013 , 02:13 PM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by AngelFluttershy View Post
I'm getting the feeling that some of the players are supporting the brainstormed change to Laze Target that the Devs threw out because they'd take anything over nothing. As Paowee said, they threw us a bone on a string and we're chasing it, but is that how we really want to treat this opportunity?
Well, it's better than nothing.

If nothing else, I hope at least some change coming out of this is a good thing. Good start. Precedent for further Dev-Player cooperation.

Quote: Originally Posted by AngelFluttershy View Post
Why can't we have a developing conversation about the purpose of Laze Target and what alterations could make it fit its designed purpose better?
Because it's Laze Target.
Really. If I were a developer, I wouldn't want to have long talks about the purpose of Laze Target. For you it's one of your only two offensive cooldowns... for me it's one of your 40 possible abilities and one of 150 between all classes.

Quote: Originally Posted by AngelFluttershy View Post
Let's put in the extra effort the combat team is and continue the discussion so we can go back to them with some really great input. Not only could this improve Laze Target beyond what was initially suggested...
Well, I posted my suggested improvement a few times here:

I believe the PvP game needs an offensive cooldown that can, once in a while, get through sustained defenses. Something that can actually kill someone who, at their 25% hitpoints, otherwise remains still invincible due to guard and heals.

Allowing LT-buffed shots to ignore Guard - and preferably ignore player defenses altogether, no avoidance, no mitigation - would let it serve this purpose. It won't make snipers parse any higher, mobs don't guard one another. It will simply give Arenas that all-important execute. Not the fake "execute" that only takes the target from 25% to 20%; just something other than Smash that can actually finish a player off so acid doesn't have to.

Total DPS doesn't change, not more than by a few points. It just makes sure this damage comes to the target and not to the ever-healed tank. After all, aren't Snipers supposed to hit who they meant to hit?
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paowee's Avatar


paowee
08.27.2013 , 03:28 PM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by AngelFluttershy View Post
First off I'd like to say I'm not picking on Paowee or anyone else, just his above posts hold a theme that a few posters seem to be supporting.

I'm getting the feeling that some of the players are supporting the brainstormed change to Laze Target that the Devs threw out because they'd take anything over nothing. As Paowee said, they threw us a bone on a string and we're chasing it, but is that how we really want to treat this opportunity? The Devs answered our question about Laze Target and showed that they'd be open for altering the ability a bit to better fit its designed purpose, but many of you are acting like the whole combat team sat down and gave us an ultimatum. I'm sure whoever sat down and wrote that question put that out there just to show us something they could do with it, not something they would or wanted to do with it in the first place.

I would suggest we take advantage of this opportunity, not just stop here. The community team gave us the platform to ask questions, the combat team answered our questions with an open-ended response for us to retort, and now its up to us to continue the discussion. Why stop at a suggestion they just came up with to flesh out their answer? Why can't we have a developing conversation about the purpose of Laze Target and what alterations could make it fit its designed purpose better? We already know that class balancing won't be coming until 2.5-2.6, so we have a lot of time to hold a strong discussion that would help the ability develop into something we can all be very happy with.

Let's put in the extra effort the combat team is and continue the discussion so we can go back to them with some really great input. Not only could this improve Laze Target beyond what was initially suggested, but this would set a precedent for the future where more back and forth between the combat team and player community could take place. We've got nothing to lose here and everything to gain.
No problemo Angels and great post from you as always! Hmm.. in order to give a suggesstion... we'll have to vote again on what kind of laze target everyone wants. Something that is balanced and does not widen the DPS gap more. Something that aligns with BW's design and intention and a reason that justifies giving us, an already high sustained DPS class some more burst, or some more extra DPS. Honestly I don't think I have the energy to do that again after this post and the Sniper questions thread. If anyone wants to start a new post about it and gather the community's decision, i'll be glad to forward it to eric.

xD
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Whojoo's Avatar


Whojoo
08.27.2013 , 03:35 PM | #127
Just to be clear, I vote I want LT/SL to affect abilities specific to the 3 specs at the cost of increased cooldown.
Below is a first thought I came up with (sorry if someone else already mentioned).
I voted yes pure because I am curious how the suggested change will affect us And I haven't really thought about balance and stuff in my idea :P (again sory if someone else already emntioned this idea)

I like the idea for a change but the cost is still big in my eyes.
I think that, due to the longer cooldown, the change will be nearly nothing (dps wise).

I am wondering if something like this is possible:
Makes your next Amush - Aimed shot instant and usable out of cover. CD 2-3 min.

As in getting something we can use on the run. Let the higher coldown be the strategic value, know when to use it.
Although the effects will be best for SS - MM with trickshot - followthrough
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AngelFluttershy's Avatar


AngelFluttershy
08.27.2013 , 03:54 PM | #128
Sorry for the super large post, but I don't like double posting.
Quote: Originally Posted by B-Dick View Post
Well, it's better than nothing.

If nothing else, I hope at least some change coming out of this is a good thing. Good start. Precedent for further Dev-Player cooperation.
Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see something change as well, but I just think we don't need to chomp at the bit for it especially since it's for a cooldown that is just lack-luster for one of the top performing classes. There are other classes with much more urgency for change than we are, and they should be chasing the devs for that. However, that's not saying we shouldn't be taking initiative, like how Paowee has now and before.

Quote: Originally Posted by B-Dick View Post
Because it's Laze Target.
Really. If I were a developer, I wouldn't want to have long talks about the purpose of Laze Target. For you it's one of your only two offensive cooldowns... for me it's one of your 40 possible abilities and one of 150 between all classes.
I'm not saying the devs or the player community need to have a long talk on the offensive cooldown's purpose, heck the devs already know why Laze Target is in the game. The point I was making is that if we do have serious discussions about how Laze Target could change, we need to recognize what its suppose to accomplish (i.e. Is it for extra burst, sustained DPS boost, added utility, etc). If we aren't clear on what its job is then we can't comment on how it's suppose to do its job better.

For you it's one of the 40 abilities we have at our disposal, for me it's one of the 40 tools we were given. Each tool has its own purpose, while some tools are less impressive than others, if the tool isn't doing its designated job or under-performing at it that's a problem. Granted, a Sniper offensive cooldown that is under-performing isn't a big issue right now, but we should always be thinking of ways to make our arsenal more useful in every situation.

Quote: Originally Posted by B-Dick View Post
Well, I posted my suggested improvement a few times here:

I believe the PvP game needs an offensive cooldown that can, once in a while, get through sustained defenses. Something that can actually kill someone who, at their 25% hitpoints, otherwise remains still invincible due to guard and heals.

Allowing LT-buffed shots to ignore Guard - and preferably ignore player defenses altogether, no avoidance, no mitigation - would let it serve this purpose. It won't make snipers parse any higher, mobs don't guard one another. It will simply give Arenas that all-important execute. Not the fake "execute" that only takes the target from 25% to 20%; just something other than Smash that can actually finish a player off so acid doesn't have to.

Total DPS doesn't change, not more than by a few points. It just makes sure this damage comes to the target and not to the ever-healed tank. After all, aren't Snipers supposed to hit who they meant to hit?
I've been reading your suggestions, among others, and I really like it. That's a great idea for PvP as it would give Snipers a bit more warrant in Arena teams. Not to mention the way you communicated your idea was fantastic as it covered multiple bases.

However, this does ignore change for PvE which there are Snipers/Slingers who'd like to see alteration there. Do you have any ideas how this change could be accompanied with a PvE change? My first thought would be for Laze Target to function differently in both environments. For example, in PvP it will bypass guard but in PvE it would guarantee the Snipe won't miss the target and the Snipe would do a small amount of extra damage. I know this would make PvE Snipers parse higher, so the cooldown could be extended to a 1m30sec while a new PvP 4pc reduces the cooldown on Laze Target by 30 seconds. No change in PvE parse while giving PvE Snipers a bit more burst and then PvP Snipers get a nice utility boost with a 4pc bonus that isn't lack-luster as well.

My statement about discussing changes was directed at the thread in general as your suggestions, among others, have been glossed over because the purpose of this thread is just to see how many players in the Sniper community would back the example change the devs told us. I'd like for your suggestion, among others, to go under more serious consideration among our peers rather than just being additional information as why you are for or against the chang to Laze Target discussed in the original post. That way our input on Laze Target would garner a greater sample of information that the devs would be more likely to look into closely instead of just seeing if we're ya or nay on an example Laze Target change.

Quote: Originally Posted by paowee
No problemo Angels and great post from you as always! Hmm.. in order to give a suggesstion... we'll have to vote again on what kind of laze target everyone wants. Something that is balanced and does not widen the DPS gap more. Something that aligns with BW's design and intention and a reason that justifies giving us, an already high sustained DPS class some more burst, or some more extra DPS. Honestly I don't think I have the energy to do that again after this post and the Sniper questions thread. If anyone wants to start a new post about it and gather the community's decision, i'll be glad to forward it to eric.

xD
Haha, thanks Paowee! I also wouldn't expect you to do everything, there are a lot of us Snipers/Slingers around here so I don't see why we can't share the responsibility. If we are going to start a thread about Laze Target suggestions we'd have to set ground rules. Like you said, we'd have to make sure the change in how much damage it inflicts doesn't give our sustained damage a boost. Furthermore, the suggestions would have to adhere to the design purpose of Laze Target as seen by the developers, this is something we can easily derive from their answer to our question especially since they gave us an example. Each suggestion would also have to justify its implementation like you said. Stating why the extra burst or utility is needed is essential, reasons like, "because Laze Target is boring/sucks," are not good reasons.

Maybe I'll write up something in a bit unless someone else would like to head it up (if so please let us all know), but I'd still like to wait a day before posting anything like that so other posters can weigh in on this discussion.

Quote: Originally Posted by Whojoo View Post
Just to be clear, I vote I want LT/SL to affect abilities specific to the 3 specs at the cost of increased cooldown.
Below is a first thought I came up with (sorry if someone else already mentioned).
I voted yes pure because I am curious how the suggested change will affect us And I haven't really thought about balance and stuff in my idea :P (again sory if someone else already emntioned this idea)

I like the idea for a change but the cost is still big in my eyes.
I think that, due to the longer cooldown, the change will be nearly nothing (dps wise).

I am wondering if something like this is possible:
Makes your next Amush - Aimed shot instant and usable out of cover. CD 2-3 min.

As in getting something we can use on the run. Let the higher coldown be the strategic value, know when to use it.
Although the effects will be best for SS - MM with trickshot - followthrough
I definitely agree that if the cooldown is going to be increased to two minutes or greater that the ability would have to be more worthwhile. This value being derived from utility rather than damage is a step in right direction, but instant out-of-cover ambush may be a bit much seeing how much damage Ambush does, especially in Marksmanship. Laze Target should effect a more neutral ability among the specs or more than one.

Svii's Avatar


Svii
08.27.2013 , 03:55 PM | #129
Great post by Angel, which are my thoughts but not able to articulate

Really appreciate how much time and effort Paowee spend to support the Sniper/Slinger community. Also, we have a great collection of level headed people in here. Kudos to you all!

Mythurin's Avatar


Mythurin
08.27.2013 , 03:57 PM | #130
If the CD is 3min I want a One Shot One Kill Mentality out of it. Some things I would prefer with it:
  • 100% Armor Pen. There will be a KB included in the shot like MM. Range of KB to be determined.
  • I want the shot to pass through and hit another Player/NPC. Max it will Pen through is 3 players with the first being 100%DMG, 2nd 50% DMG, 3rd 25%. DMG can be an Auto Crit of course.
  • If the player is below 25% HP then the 1st player/NPC it hits is an auto Kill.
  • Have to be out of Combat to use. This is to "Zero the scope, Aim and Setup" kinda like the animation as is now.
  • Lastly, leave as is. Or possibly make Lazed Snipe and Target Acquired work hand in hand somehow.

-J