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Vanguard // Powertechs Top 3 Answers!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Vanguard / Powertech
Vanguard // Powertechs Top 3 Answers!
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CourtneyWoods's Avatar


CourtneyWoods
08.23.2013 , 02:20 PM | #1 Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. Next  
Hello Vanguards!

Below are your answers from the dev team for your top three questions. Thank you very much for all the hard work you put into gathering these! The combat team will be keeping an eye on this thread, reading your feedback, and watching for any followups. Like with the Sniper and Sentinel answers, we have put the answers twice - first with Vanguard and second with Powertech so that it is easier for you to read.

-Courtney


Quote:
PvP

The community feels that Vanguards lack both survivability and utility in comparison to the other two DPS/tank classes. When we look at the defensive cooldown that shadows possess (stealth, force speed, force wave, deflection, phasewalk, and resilience), we see a greater potential for surviving an encounter. The same is true when we look at a guardians list of cooldowns (guardian leap, force leap, saber ward, saber reflect, enure and force push). Looking at the vanguards short list of (reactive shield, hold the line, and adrenaline rush, harpoon, stealth scan), In terms of being picked for high level end game PVP IE (Rated pvp) coupled with the changes to our burst and lack of cool downs as listed above vanguard tanks and DPS alike bring nothing to the plate that the other two tanking/DPS class don’t bring, For example (in this example consider the three classes are DPS spec only ) in a huttball a shadow has his or her stealth for setting up end zone passes also the shadow has his or her force speed and resilience for grabbing the ball when it resets to the middle of the map. A guardian has his or her enemy leap and friendly leap, and force push for setting up scores, a vanguard has his or her harpoon for fire pulls and hold the line, harpoon can be a game saving talent in the right hands and hold the line is far from useless but the community feels that these talents don’t stack up to the other two classes talents. The word “lackluster” fits how the community's feels about the class right now. To encompass the point of this question here again the vanguard players feel “lackluster” in PVP Where as before many players at least felt like they were able to compete in PVP do to the burst assault once had now many players feel no matter which spec they find themselves using they cannot compete whatsoever, so we ask what could be done to address these weaknesses?
We are sorry that the community feels this way about the Vanguard. The short list you gave for the Vanguard was only one item behind the lists you gave for Shadows and Guardians. The road of comparison only leads to disappointment, and I believe many Guardians and Shadows are disappointed in their 30-meter range options, while Vanguards have many options when they are beyond melee range. Guardians and Shadows also can’t use Shoulder Cannon to damage enemies while they are stunned or to add a bit of extra burst when they aren’t stunned. Vanguards wear heavier armor than Shadows and have much better long-range capabilities than Guardians.

In short, this is a perception problem, and it is one that you admit didn’t exist when Assault Specialist dealt more damage. When Assault Specialist damage goes up, will this perception issue go away? If not, we’ll address the issue, but we aren’t looking to make massive improvements that would only tip the scales in the other direction.


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We are sorry that the community feels this way about the Powertech. The short list you gave for the Powertech was only one item behind the lists you gave for Shadows and Guardians. The road of comparison only leads to disappointment, and I believe many Guardians and Shadows are disappointed in their 30-meter range options, while Powertechs have many options when they are beyond melee range. Guardians and Shadows also can’t use Shoulder Cannon to damage enemies while they are stunned or to add a bit of extra burst when they aren’t stunned. Powertechs wear heavier armor than Shadows and have much better long-range capabilities than Guardians.

In short, this is a perception problem, and it is one that you admit didn’t exist when Pyrotech dealt more damage. When Pyrotech damage goes up, will this perception issue go away? If not, we’ll address the issue, but we aren’t looking to make massive improvements that would only tip the scales in the other direction.


Quote:
PVE:

With the changes to the Assault tree and even with the small tweaks to the Tactics tree, many players for higher-end content (i.e. TFB/SV NiM) opt out of the top tier talents in both trees and instead run a hybrid spec. The general player consensus behind this option is that a full-tree Assault build is simply not viable, and that Tactics is missing a few key components to make it a truly great spec. In Assault, Assault Plastique's damage is disproportionate to other classes top-tier talent (not to mention having its burst potential neutered in 2.0), and lacks any kind of synergy with the tree. Tactics is a bit better, but players are forced to put a point into Blaster Augs (which gives a frustrating 1% boost to elemental attacks), and once again, the top tier talent Fire Pulse features a long cooldown while lacking any real punch. The hybrid spec, rather, is a simple priority system that combines Tactics AoE capabilities via Pulse Generator and pre-2.0 Assault's single target damage potential with three different DoT's and hard-hitting HiB. Was this hybrid intended to out pace the full tree builds of Assault/Tactics? If not, we as the player base feel as if the top-tier talents in both Tactics and Assault should be re-considered to make it worthwhile for players to climb all the way up the tree, so what can be done to increase their usefulness?
We never intend for hybrids to outperform the 36-point builds, and this is exactly what we addressed in the 2.4 update. Players should now find that both Fire Pulse and Assault Plastique deal more damage than they did previously. In addition, the Assault Specialist should see some of its burst make a return in 2.4. At your convenience, I highly encourage you to copy your Vanguard over to the PTS and try out the new Tactics and Assault Specialist builds, along with the hybrid builds. The 36 point builds should outperform the hybrids now.

Please keep in mind that Assault Specialist will perform considerably worse on a target dummy than it does in a real combat situation. There are two primary reasons for this. The most obvious reason is that the Burnout skill does not get its full effect on a target dummy, because a target dummy never falls below 30% health. The less obvious reason is because only around 48% of an Assault Specialist’s damage ignores armor, while for Tactics this number is around 65%. This means that the Assault Specialist has more to gain in situations where an armor debuff is present on the target, as should be the case in an operation.


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We never intend for hybrids to outperform the 36-point builds, and this is exactly what we addressed in the 2.4 update. Players should now find that both Immolate and Thermal Detonator deal more damage than they did previously. In addition, the Pyrotech should see some of its burst make a return in 2.4. At your convenience, I highly encourage you to copy your Powertech over to the PTS and try out the new Advanced Prototype and Pyrotech builds, along with the hybrid builds. The 36 point builds should outperform the hybrids now.

Please keep in mind that Pyrotech will perform considerably worse on a target dummy than it does in a real combat situation. There are two primary reasons for this. The most obvious reason is that the Burnout skill does not get its full effect on a target dummy, because a target dummy never falls below 30% health. The less obvious reason is because only around 48% of an Pyrotech’s damage ignores armor, while for Advanced Prototype this number is around 65%. This means that the Pyrotech has more to gain in situations where an armor debuff is present on the target, as should be the case in an operation.


Quote:
Other:

For our last question one of the biggest concerns the community has with the vanguard class from a DPS standpoint of view is lack of burst. With some of the changes to our class in 2.0 and the change to Crit vanguard DPS across all servers found themselves lacking burst and suffering heavily from it. Our classes TTK (time to kill) is very slow now its not impossible to solo another class but overall in both the tactics tree and assault tree we feel VERY underwhelmed and out classes compared to a shadow DPS or a guardian DPS. Many players have made note that the change to our High Impact bolts armor pen has played a part in this but also if we look at other classes such as shadows, commandos, or focus Guardians our numbers in game don’t stack up. Our High impact bolt hits on average around 5.5 to 6.5 K and that’s at its highest whereas other classes like focus guardians or shadows flat out hit harder In PVP TTK (time to kill) especially in endgame high level PVP such as rateds or the upcoming arenas time to kill and burst is something a class must have to be taken, our class lacks that over all. Our end match numbers CAN and will stack up to other classes in both tactics and Assault but these numbers are misleading we might be stacking up number wise but we struggle to kill anything in both our DPS trees compared to the other DPS classes, it feels as if right now all classes have at least one DPS tree they can count on to bring burst to their teams efforts but our class really lacks that feature and we feel this is a problem that needs to be addressed. Before 2.0 a vanguard DPS could find himself a spot on a good rated team do to the great burst he or she brought to the plate. It was what set our class apart from the others and in many ways was our best defense skill so, with that said is there anyway this overall general concern for our classes lack of burst damage could be addressed?
2.4 is bringing a DPS upgrade to both Vanguard damage dealing specializations, as well as a burst upgrade for Assault Specialists and a harder-hitting Fire Pulse for Tactics. These upgrades should make Vanguard damage dealers more competitive in PvP, with faster TTKs than before, and intrinsically more survivability because of that.

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2.4 is bringing a DPS upgrade to both Powertech damage dealing specializations, as well as a burst upgrade for Pyrotechs and a harder-hitting Immolate for Advanced Prototype. These upgrades should make Powertech damage dealers more competitive in PvP, with faster TTKs than before, and intrinsically more survivability because of that.
Courtney Woods | Lead Community Coordinator
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af_raptura's Avatar


af_raptura
08.23.2013 , 02:36 PM | #2
The answers are kind of lack luster here, just like with the Sorc questions.

Sure 2.4 has an overall buff to tactics and an arguable buff to Assault, but the buffs are a bit too conservative whereas I feel they need to be more gamechanging so that Vanguards/Powertechs get taken more seriously in PvP and PvE.
PvE theorycrafting has really loosened their standards.
Quote: Originally Posted by karlwaite View Post
As for the skill changes to benefit pvp likes of the fly by damage reduction they suffered and reducing focused defence by 200% is a joke they are affecting pve to benefit pvp.

Canga's Avatar


Canga
08.23.2013 , 02:40 PM | #3
Ouch, please atleast read the theory crafted posts based on stated effect of burn out and PTS changes before writing answers like this, or at least tell us where our math is off?

You do know the community puts a lot of effort into these questions and answers like "look, we fixed it all in PTS" is really dissapointing. At least back up your statements with facts and math that show your perceived balance between classes when a flaw is pointed out by the community.

Doctorsaurus's Avatar


Doctorsaurus
08.23.2013 , 02:41 PM | #4
The argument that dummy parses don't count because we're not using Burnout is silly. Sents and slingers aren't using their <30% abilities either. But apparently comparing ourselves to other classes invalidates all arguments.

Luxidenstore's Avatar


Luxidenstore
08.23.2013 , 02:48 PM | #5
Failed the quoting. But in short, this is even worse answers than I had expected. Like really. It's friday so they could be excused if they're *********** drunk.
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Maelael's Avatar


Maelael
08.23.2013 , 03:03 PM | #6
I didn't think I could see worse answers than the Sorc ones, but here it is.

I feel bad for you guys. By far the biggest comedy was the 30m range excuse - in both 8v8 and 4v4s your range is constantly meaningless to me as a Jugg or Mara given all of my gap closers, roots, slows, and CCs.
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Winguardian's Avatar


Winguardian
08.23.2013 , 03:07 PM | #7
Wow, this post offers no real answers to any of the questions. Like many mentioned before if you are comparing our overall dps in "real" encounters there's plenty of other dps classes that get a dps gain when the target is below 30%, how is that even relevant to the issue?

I agree that we got some improvements for PVP in 2.4 but I think the PVE vanguards will still not be in a good spot. In all fairness this is gonna be hard for BW to balance right since it's not as easy as tweaking a few numbers, cause that in turn will efffect PVP aswell.

I would like to have BW re-evaluate what they could do to tweak shoulder cannon a bit to give it a better use in PVE though, since in truth for PVE it is kind of lackluster.

Kinda disappointed we waited so long for answers that are just ignoring the issues though. I feel for PVE vanguards in a raiding environment.
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MillionsKNives's Avatar


MillionsKNives
08.23.2013 , 03:08 PM | #8
Ouch. The arrogance and dismissal displayed in the responses is amazing. And here I was hoping some good might actually come out of this system.

Luxidenstore's Avatar


Luxidenstore
08.23.2013 , 03:12 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Maelael View Post
I didn't think I could see worse answers than the Sorc ones, but here it is.

I feel bad for you guys. By far the biggest comedy was the 30m range excuse - in both 8v8 and 4v4s your range is constantly meaningless to me as a Jugg or Mara given all of my gap closers, roots, slows, and CCs.
Agreed, that was the icing on the cake. First of all when they compared us with the Guardian, the Guardian have a proper gap closer + a friendly leap + an ability to reset cooldown of the gap closer. All baseline to class. That comparison was so stupid that I have no words..

Second of all, we haven't been strong at range since they nerfed IR and AP from 30m to 10m.. Are they playing their own game? And now on the PTS hammer shot can't proc Plasma cell, so we can't HiB from range either on our own. So I ask this, Bioware, what makes our ranged capabilities so good?

Mindblowing.
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Besta's Avatar


Besta
08.23.2013 , 03:18 PM | #10
So, Powertechs/vanguards are worst tanks and damage BECAUSE they can use 30m range auto attack and marauders and juggs cant? so in bioware's mind melee class with 30 meters auto attack and 2 more crap abilities that don't do damage is equal to juggernauths in tanking and marauders in damage? And the reason we ( powertechs) do absolutly crap damage is because of burnout skill?HOLY COW I FEEL LIKE BIOWARE TROLLS US, THERE IS NO OTHER REASON.
Once again powertechs are equal to juggernauth with 20 best in slot defensive cooldowns is ( ta-dam) because of autoatack and crap 400 damage shoulder cannon.

In damage trees Powertech is equal to best in slot classes because of people do not calculate burntout skill and bioware adds more burst on PTS by adding 200 damage on thermal detonator from dot to upfront damage.

HOLY COW,BIOWARE, DO U EVEN UNDERSAND YOUR OWN GAME?:rak_ 02::rak_02 :: rak_02::ra