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Sorcerer // Sage Top 3 Answers!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sith Inquisitor > Sorcerer
Sorcerer // Sage Top 3 Answers!
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CourtneyWoods's Avatar


CourtneyWoods
08.23.2013 , 02:05 PM | #1 Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. Next  
Hey Sorcs!

Below are your answers from the dev team for your top three questions. Thank you for all the hard work you put into gathering these! The combat team will be keeping an eye on this thread, reading your feedback, and watching for any followups. Like with the Sniper and Sentinel answers, we have put the answers twice - first with Sorcerer and second with Sage so that it is easier for you to read.

-Courtney


Quote:
1. Defensive Cooldowns (PvP/PvE)

The biggest problem the sorcerer faces is one of survivability. Currently the sorcerer takes the most damage by a sizable margin, one that is noticeable in raids and PvP (our guess is around 20%). While we have some tools that assist in keeping us alive, they are insufficient and inferior when compared to other classes.

-Force speed: Hampered by the unruly number of snares in the game, only becomes slightly viable when specced into with snare breaks, even then can still be shut down immediately.
-Bubble: exceptionally good, however, consumes a great amount of force to keep up and is on our GCD (often is broken in PvP before next GCD is ready anyway). While it is a great utility skill, it is not a traditional defensive CD.
-Barrier: a great addition, however, it keeps up from doing our job and the second it falls off we are targeted and killed just as fast. It only acts as a small delay, not a defensive cooldown.
-Heals: obviously they are weaker and every heal we cast is just another attack we are not making.

When compared to other classes, such a marauder or sniper, they both get cooldowns that allow them to mitigate a lot (or all) of the damage for a period of time. Another part of our problem is that most of our defensive abilities need to be spec’d into, but they are entirely scattered throughout the three trees - we can't get them all, but we need them all and then some.

So with all this in mind, do you think that this very obvious disparity between sorcerers/sages and every other class’ defensive cooldowns are fair? Or for that matter… is it intended? If it isn’t, is there any plan to give us some sort of damage mitigation? Some ability that, given the proper amount of team assistance, can help us withstand an assault from multiple players? Obviously we don’t want to take on an entire team/raid boss but something to even the playing field. Because currently we have the lightest armor… and it shows.
There may be a little room for improvement here, though comparing a Sorcerer to a Marauder or Sniper is not exactly a fair comparison. The fact is, Marauders and Snipers cannot heal themselves to full. Sure, you cannot deal damage while you are healing, but knowing when to heal or when to deal damage is part of playing a Sorcerer. Marauders and Snipers definitely have a simplicity advantage over Sorcerers, because they can only fulfill the role of a damage dealer. Therefore, they are easier to play to their full potential than any class that can tank/off-tank or heal/off-heal.

There are no current plans to give Sorcerers some sort of damage mitigation, though we might tweak some existing skills or abilities if we feel that Sorcerers are underperforming. Force Barrier already helps Sorcerers withstand an assault from multiple players, and how you use it is crucial to your survival. As a Sorcerer, you must play defensively and make them pay for trying to kill you.


---

There may be a little room for improvement here, though comparing a Sage to a Marauder or Sniper is not exactly a fair comparison. The fact is, Marauders and Snipers cannot heal themselves to full. Sure, you cannot deal damage while you are healing, but knowing when to heal or when to deal damage is part of playing a Sage. Marauders and Snipers definitely have a simplicity advantage over Sages, because they can only fulfill the role of a damage dealer. Therefore, they are easier to play to their full potential than any class that can tank/off-tank or heal/off-heal.

There are no current plans to give Sages some sort of damage mitigation, though we might tweak some existing skills or abilities if we feel that Sages are underperforming. Force Barrier already helps Sages withstand an assault from multiple players, and how you use it is crucial to your survival. As a Sage, you must play defensively and make them pay for trying to kill you.


Quote:
2. Spec Shutdown (PvP)


A big problem we face as sorcerer/sage is that our specs (all of them) are very easily shut down. For example; madness and its dots are too easily cleansed, corruption has far too many casted abilities and is extremely prone to interrupts, and lightning falls victim to severe LoS. Thundering blast and AoE heals being the biggest offenders.

The other classes/specs we compete with on the battlefield have some sort of protection against a lot of what might be detrimental to their jobs. Lethality has a weaker version of their dots when removed, but it allows them to continue with their nuke (cull). Medicine operatives have the highest movement potential of the healers, their two casted abilities, if interrupted, do not stop them from healing effectively, and they have a short cooldown on their all-dot cleanse. Arsenal mercenaries have 1 ability they need to setup with and their major attack (heat seekers) are an instant cast, making it difficult to LoS them.

The off-healing abilities do not compensate for our inefficiencies – we do not have the ability to out heal incoming damage in any spec and can’t continue DPS while healing. So, is it intended for us to be easier to stop because we can dps while in heal spec and vice versa, even if they are mostly unreliable unless specced into? Given the current state of PvP, is it intended for our class to be so easy to shut down?
It is not intended for Sorcerers to be easier to stop because they can heal while specialized to DPS or vice versa; however, the ability to heal is considered to be part of a Sorcerer’s overall survivability. Sorcerers should not be easier to shut down than any other Advanced Class, but due to the fact that most of the Sorcerer’s healing and damaging abilities have an activation time, they may need to be more careful than other classes about using LOS to their own advantage – for a Sorcerer, positioning is extremely important at all times. Sorcerer’s are an “easy to play, hard to master” class, in that most of their abilities are rather straight-forward and easily understood, but getting the most out of those abilities may require a higher skill level than many players are comfortable with.

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It is not intended for Sages to be easier to stop because they can heal while specialized to DPS or vice versa; however, the ability to heal is considered to be part of a Sage’s overall survivability. Sages should not be easier to shut down than any other Advanced Class, but due to the fact that most of the Sage’s healing and damaging abilities have an activation time, they may need to be more careful than other classes about using LOS to their own advantage – for a Sage, positioning is extremely important at all times. Sage’s are an “easy to play, hard to master” class, in that most of their abilities are rather straight-forward and easily understood, but getting the most out of those abilities may require a higher skill level than many players are comfortable with.

Quote:
3. Community's Choice- Force Management (PvP/PvE)

In the current state of PvP and soon to be 4v4s it is going to become a challenge for Corruption and Madness sorcerers to maintain force. In long, drawn out fights which we can expect to see in 4v4, madness and corruption will likely run into force issues. As corruption and it’s fairly easy spec to shut down, it will become increasingly difficult as the fights drag on to keep yourself alive and your teammates (most likely the tank). As you start to fall behind in force trying to keep some of your cast’s instant, it will not be optimal to start sacrificing your health. Madness will have an easier time with management, but again, will likely run into force issues when under pressure.

Sorcerers are often referred to as a more ‘support’ class. Which is fine, however, dipping into this support role quickly depletes a large chunk of our force. Off healing and bubbling quickly runs us try and we usually have nothing to show for it. Is there any plan to add some force management abilities/talents/mechanics to our corruption and madness trees? Even something as simple as lowering the cost of static barrier would be a step in the right direction.
We currently have no plans to add any extra Force management abilities, skills, or mechanics to Corruption or Madness, though we may consider lowering the cost of Static Barrier (but that would likely come at the price of lowering the absorption it provides). In PvE, all healers (not just Corruption Sorcerers) should struggle with resources in prolonged combat encounters (unless they have out-geared the encounter). In PvP, healers should not be able to keep everyone alive either because too much damage is being done to too many of their allies all at once or because one specific ally is taking too much damage within a short timeframe – not because they are running out of resources. If this is not the case for a well-played Corruption Sorcerer, then we will make necessary adjustments when it becomes more apparent.

The Critical Rating stat is currently adjusted to a level that grants a critical chance with which we are not completely satisfied, and this means that some specializations lacking a built-in auto-crit are at a disadvantage, while specializations like Madness and Corruption that gain utilities and advantages when they critically hit are at an even bigger disadvantage. We will be working to rectify this issue with the Critical Rating stat in the future, and that should alleviate some issues for Madness, Corruption, and many other specializations within the game.


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We currently have no plans to add any extra Force management abilities, skills, or mechanics to Seer or Balance, though we may consider lowering the cost of Force Armor (but that would likely come at the price of lowering the absorption it provides). In PvE, all healers (not just Seer Sages) should struggle with resources in prolonged combat encounters (unless they have out-geared the encounter). In PvP, healers should not be able to keep everyone alive either because too much damage is being done to too many of their allies all at once or because one specific ally is taking too much damage within a short timeframe – not because they are running out of resources. If this is not the case for a well-played Seer Sage, then we will make necessary adjustments when it becomes more apparent.

The Critical Rating stat is currently adjusted to a level that grants a critical chance with which we are not completely satisfied, and this means that some specializations lacking a built-in auto-crit are at a disadvantage, while specializations like Balance and Seer that gain utilities and advantages when they critically hit are at an even bigger disadvantage. We will be working to rectify this issue with the Critical Rating stat in the future, and that should alleviate some issues for Balance, Seer, and many other specializations within the game.
Courtney Woods | Lead Community Coordinator
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Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
08.23.2013 , 02:21 PM | #2
Ask Musca just how much fun he is having healing himself while he should be killing others in Arenas.

Nice FU to Sage/Sorcs, at least crit is getting changed.
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Nibbon's Avatar


Nibbon
08.23.2013 , 02:21 PM | #3
Yeah thesare sort of non answers. I'll have to break it down more when I get time.

Generally, though, our main complaint is we can't be purely good at anything when that is what the game demands from us at the top level. When we are dps spec, we want to DPS. It's the healers job to keep us alive when we get hurt from mechanics. If we waste time healing ourselves then we miss the enrage time.

Saying we can't compare ourselves to other DPS classes is ridiculous. Those are the people we need to compete with to get into raids. If they can mitigate more damage than us while putting out more, who would you bring into the raid?

af_raptura's Avatar


af_raptura
08.23.2013 , 02:21 PM | #4
Anyone else less than satisfied with these answers? It seems like overall, they are saying "working as intended".
PvE theorycrafting has really loosened their standards.
Quote: Originally Posted by karlwaite View Post
As for the skill changes to benefit pvp likes of the fly by damage reduction they suffered and reducing focused defence by 200% is a joke they are affecting pve to benefit pvp.

skarlson's Avatar


skarlson
08.23.2013 , 02:26 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Nibbon View Post
Yeah that are sort of non answers. I'll have to break it down more when I get time.

Generally, though, our main complaint is we can't be purely good at anything when that is what the game demands from us at the top level. When we are dps spec, we want to DPS. It's the healers job to keep us alive when we get hurt from mechanics. If we waste time healing ourselves then we miss the enrage time.

Saying we can't compare ourselves to other DPS classes is ridiculous. Those are the people we need to compete with to get into raids. If they can mitigate more damage than us while putting out more, who would you bring into the raid?
Logic need not apply; Bioware knows best now shut up and eat your cake! Sorry you guys seemed to have wasted your time on this. Honestly, I didn't think it would turn out any other way though. Bioware seem to be the only people in the entire community who lack any sort of common sense. As I think Psi put it, we won't even need to bother going to competitive arena with the current state of PTs as there won't be a slot for us. Exactly what you are talking about. They don't have a clue how their own game works.

Let's take a case in point. There is/was some ridiculous bug on the same level as rollbang, if not rollbang, though I don't recall the specifics. They recently were quoted saying they were unaware it was even happening yet there are posts all over about it. I actually think it was rollbang. They have no clue what actually happens in this game and God forbid they should actually touch us as given their track record, 2.0 aside as every rule has an exception, we will come out worse than ever.
"Unlimited powahahaha! I can't say it..." -Darth Sidious as a Sorcerer

Canga's Avatar


Canga
08.23.2013 , 02:28 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by CourtneyWoods
The fact is, Marauders and Snipers cannot heal themselves to full. Sure, you cannot deal damage while you are healing, but knowing when to heal or when to deal damage is part of playing a Sorcerer. Marauders and Snipers definitely have a simplicity advantage over Sorcerers, because they can only fulfill the role of a damage dealer. Therefore, they are easier to play to their full potential than any class that can tank/off-tank or heal/off-heal.
Is it a hybrid tax I smell here? I was under the impression there was officially no such thing?
When you spec into DPS you're DPS, the utility brought by other pure DPS classes (such as sniper shield and bloodthirst) is IMHO enough to warrent an even DPS output compared to the eventual heal a hybrid can through out.

Quote: Originally Posted by CourtneyWoods
The Critical Rating stat is currently adjusted to a level that grants a critical chance with which we are not completely satisfied, and this means that some specializations lacking a built-in auto-crit are at a disadvantage, while specializations like Madness and Corruption that gain utilities and advantages when they critically hit are at an even bigger disadvantage
Critt based classes have been at a disadvantage since 2.0, basically you're saying that we just need to sit tight and be inferior until the gear curve catches up?

psybernetic's Avatar


psybernetic
08.23.2013 , 02:36 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Devs
LOL L2P SCRUBS WORKING AS INTENDED HAHAHAHA
Easy to learn, hard to master? Ok, so because we can heal, suddenly that justifies being the easiest class to shut down when even a TANK can take our effective DPS down to near zero by sitting on us? Our mobile spec does crap damage in pvp because it can be cleansed off and our burst spec is screwed by LOS and cast times. Our sole defensive cooldown is on a 2:30 timer at the fastest, takes us out of the fight entirely and is basically a beacon to come back later and go in for the kill then. Not only is it inconvenient as DPS, it can completely **** an arena team because the healer can't stay out of the fight for long. rrManiac's videos vs the dev team display how awful corruption and madness perform in 4v4, and that was against a less-than-ideal comp.

We have our answers. Reroll to an ezmode class. It's like *********** Burning Crusade as a Warlock all over again. Good thing I just happen to have a juggernaut and an operative. Combat clearly has no idea what they're doing.

Edit -- One more thing: THERE IS NO LOS VS RAGE
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judgeender's Avatar


judgeender
08.23.2013 , 02:41 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Nibbon View Post
Yeah thesare sort of non answers. I'll have to break it down more when I get time.

Generally, though, our main complaint is we can't be purely good at anything when that is what the game demands from us at the top level. When we are dps spec, we want to DPS. It's the healers job to keep us alive when we get hurt from mechanics. If we waste time healing ourselves then we miss the enrage time.

Saying we can't compare ourselves to other DPS classes is ridiculous. Those are the people we need to compete with to get into raids. If they can mitigate more damage than us while putting out more, who would you bring into the raid?
Exactly this. Nightmare enrage timers are extremely tight. The amount of damage that goes out either as AOE to the entire raid (particularly during burn phases such as Kephess or Titan VI) and to a random member of the raid is significant. If we are brought as a DPS, we need to be able to do our job. We are already not at the top of the charts (even if we can DPS full-time). To say that we need to stop performing our job to heal ourselves (or worse immunity bubble and do nothing) is ridiculous. As previously noted, we take significantly more damage and are at a much higher risk of dying to these things than any other class. If a raid has to choose between (i) someone with lots of CDs to mitigate such damage and can top the DPS and (ii) someone who has no cooldowns (and is likely to die causing a wipe), can't top the DPS chart and has to stop DPS to "heal" thereby increasing the chance of enrage, the choice is simple: sorcs/sages will not be chosen.

Mercenaries/Commandos can heal themselves and take significantly less damage and have better cooldowns.

Retsigam (Sorc) // Magister (Sage) The Shadowlands.

AdrianDmitruk's Avatar


AdrianDmitruk
08.23.2013 , 02:42 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by af_raptura View Post
Anyone else less than satisfied with these answers? It seems like overall, they are saying "working as intended".
After reading this, I really need to find the Eric Musco arena videos--I keep reading about them.

Maybe the devs should ask the dev who actually had the courage to stick his neck out and play a not-FOTM class how easy it is to position/LOS when:

1) Instant WW was completely taken away from sorcs (while warriors/agents still get to keep instant AOE mezz as baseline, no need to spec into it)
2) Root KB got moved way up high in lightning tree, and our KB is the only one that does not have a root or snare component baseline
3) Range on our KBs is inferior to all other KBs, and insuffficient to knock a smashing leaper back out of range of an immediate obliterate

Way to completely evade the question about what little defenses sorcs have being way too scattered high up in the various trees--how are we supposed to LOS when the control needed to prevent enemies from following us keeps getting nerfed?

Maybe Bioware should have a little chat with Eric Musco about the L2P response to Question The First and Question The Second.
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af_raptura's Avatar


af_raptura
08.23.2013 , 02:47 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by AdrianDmitruk View Post
After reading this, I really need to find the Eric Musco arena videos--I keep reading about them.
here you go.

http://www.twitch.tv/rrmaniac/c/2763459
PvE theorycrafting has really loosened their standards.
Quote: Originally Posted by karlwaite View Post
As for the skill changes to benefit pvp likes of the fly by damage reduction they suffered and reducing focused defence by 200% is a joke they are affecting pve to benefit pvp.