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Kell Dragon - Gearing Your Raid


MiralukaJedi's Avatar


MiralukaJedi
08.17.2013 , 08:33 PM | #1
So, my guild has decided on a new gearing method for the raid. While I'm fine with new gearing methods, I'm a bit worried this is going to be stupid. In short, they assign based on benefits of the raid. Sounded cool, but then came the terrible logic of 'Sure a chest would be great for the tank, but a squishy DPS taking less damage during AoEs would be better'. I went "what?" And "Ok, the off hand would help a healers heal and then the DPS." (Because enrage timer isn't an issue when I'm carrying someone who is 500-1000 DPS behind <.< )

As such, I would like it if people in full or mostly Kell Dragon and those that do Nightmare Raiding at the end level would provide a few basic answers.

I doubt the raid leader will listen, but hoping with enough end game raiders he might. If possible list your class, guild, progression etc. I figure more information the better.

First off, for those doing Nightmare raiding

Q: If you were assigning pieces to roles, how would you do it? Example: A main hand drops and you want the most benefit to the raid, who do you give it too? A chest drops? Etc. (Weapons are the key question here, but list whatever)

For those in full Kell Dragon:

Q: As a DPS what's your DR and class? Knowing this can show how minimal a difference the armor rating makes. I pointed out that my gunslinger in level 35 gear has 18% vs a sniper in full 72s with 22%, but I figure a 55 in Kell Dragon vs our 55s in Underworld would be nice to have the numbers.

Q: Healers, how huge a difference was going from 72 barrel/hilt/offhand/mainhand to a 75 one? For DPS, how huge a difference was it?



Mainly, as a whole I'm curious what you all view the gearing priority as. I'm pretty sure I know the answers, but I think a bunch of people all agreeing (if a consensus was reached) would be more convincing then one DPS going "Uhhhh...I don't need a chest its hardly any DR and DR isn't my job."

Falver's Avatar


Falver
08.17.2013 , 08:59 PM | #2
In my opinion, DPS are the most important to gear first. Healing is largely dependent on the skill of the healer and while better gear makes healing easier (which is granted), DPS walls will be hit and can be solved in very few ways.
1. Drop the lower DPS in your group. This is usually the best, but most awkward stance to take. Finding quality, night-mare level DPS for an ops group is usually impossible. The simple reason? They're usually already in another guild/ops group.
2. Change strats. Things like taking 5 DPS to HM TC, or tanking dash'roode against the pillar/clickable shield are things you can do. This is isn't always an option.
3. Improve the DPS already in your group. This is usually the option that most people would take. Either gear up your core DPS further or get better at their DPS class. At a certain point though, the second option is not possible.

Personally, I've seen our progression group do fantastically on mechanics and the fight itself and then hit some sort of enrage. Does giving healers or tanks better gear solve this? Take this from the perspective of someone who has healed, tanked and is DPSing progression. Having higher DPS tends to make general mechanics easier. Take Stormcaller and Firebrand for example. Having the DPS to get only one Double Destruction makes all of the difference. Take a more recent fight like Titan 6. If you have the DPS to be able to pause DPS and heal up the raid/DPS adds, your options are much broader.

Now, all of that being said, if your raid group had much MORE than enough DPS, then there isn't as much need to gear your DPS.

To answer one of your particular questions though, a healer or tank should NEVER get a mainhand before the DPS. The sheer benefit that they get isn't comparable.
The Harbinger
Claimed - Thirteenth - Falver
<Phobos> is recruiting to fill in multiple raid groups. Apply at http://fearphobos.com/

UnregisteredUser's Avatar


UnregisteredUser
08.17.2013 , 09:10 PM | #3
Our group did it like this:

Mainhand: dps (based on biggest upgrade then a roll-off for any ties - ie. 2 dps have 72 barrels, 2 dps have 69s. the 69s would roll for the 75) > heals > tanks
Offhand: dps that use offhand barrels/hilts > other dps > heals > tanks
Implants/Earpieces: tanks (if it is BiS for that class) > dps (based on BiS) > heals
Relics: Tanks (until they have their 2) > heals (1 BiS for each healer) > dps
Set pieces: Tanks > heals 2-piece > dps 2-pieces > heals > dps
Belt/Brace: Tanks > dps > heals

That was a VERY general guide we used. We did look to see the BiS pieces. For example, if we had pants drop, we'd check three things. If the tanks had their set bonuses, we checked the healers. If the healers have their 2-piece, we go to the dps. If the dps have their 2-pieces, we get the healers their 4-piece. If there are two people looking at the same piece (both healers need their 2-piece and neither have pants), we will see if the pants are BiS for a specific class to maximize the upgrade. If all things are equal, we have a roll among the 2-4 members that qualify for the piece.

My group was pretty chill about gear though. If there were any disputes, the raid leader would simply take the piece and RE it for schematics (and mats pre-2.0.)

MiralukaJedi's Avatar


MiralukaJedi
08.17.2013 , 09:15 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Falver View Post
In my opinion, DPS are the most important to gear first. Healing is largely dependent on the skill of the healer and while better gear makes healing easier (which is granted), DPS walls will be hit and can be solved in very few ways.
1. Drop the lower DPS in your group. This is usually the best, but most awkward stance to take. Finding quality, night-mare level DPS for an ops group is usually impossible. The simple reason? They're usually already in another guild/ops group.
2. Change strats. Things like taking 5 DPS to HM TC, or tanking dash'roode against the pillar/clickable shield are things you can do. This is isn't always an option.
3. Improve the DPS already in your group. This is usually the option that most people would take. Either gear up your core DPS further or get better at their DPS class. At a certain point though, the second option is not possible.

Personally, I've seen our progression group do fantastically on mechanics and the fight itself and then hit some sort of enrage. Does giving healers or tanks better gear solve this? Take this from the perspective of someone who has healed, tanked and is DPSing progression. Having higher DPS tends to make general mechanics easier. Take Stormcaller and Firebrand for example. Having the DPS to get only one Double Destruction makes all of the difference. Take a more recent fight like Titan 6. If you have the DPS to be able to pause DPS and heal up the raid/DPS adds, your options are much broader.

Now, all of that being said, if your raid group had much MORE than enough DPS, then there isn't as much need to gear your DPS.

To answer one of your particular questions though, a healer or tank should NEVER get a mainhand before the DPS. The sheer benefit that they get isn't comparable.


To add more, his reasoning was "With more heals, surviving (the lightning field of nightmare dreadguard) will be easier." We were specifically talking off-hand (though I doubt we'll clear Nightmare Terror before Nightmare Dread Guard, though verpine drop is possible) and I commented that yes, off-hand increases a healers bonus heals, but on a DPS it increases their tech damage, primary damage (minimal but still), and if they duel wield then their secondary damage.

I agree that a healer COULD benefit from an offhand/main hand, but that the DPS will benefit more because there is times of healing downtime, but DPS is more likely to pump out everything while healers will tend to overheal. You never over DPS. Main hand he actually hesitated and wasn't being 100% set on.

But when he argued that the chest would be good to give to the top DPS so he could "squish less" I went "..."

Thanks for your input. You made a few points I'll be copy pasting.

Quote: Originally Posted by UnregisteredUser View Post
Our group did it like this:

Mainhand: dps (based on biggest upgrade then a roll-off for any ties - ie. 2 dps have 72 barrels, 2 dps have 69s. the 69s would roll for the 75) > heals > tanks
Offhand: dps that use offhand barrels/hilts > other dps > heals > tanks
Implants/Earpieces: tanks (if it is BiS for that class) > dps (based on BiS) > heals
Relics: Tanks (until they have their 2) > heals (1 BiS for each healer) > dps
Set pieces: Tanks > heals 2-piece > dps 2-pieces > heals > dps
Belt/Brace: Tanks > dps > heals

That was a VERY general guide we used. We did look to see the BiS pieces. For example, if we had pants drop, we'd check three things. If the tanks had their set bonuses, we checked the healers. If the healers have their 2-piece, we go to the dps. If the dps have their 2-pieces, we get the healers their 4-piece. If there are two people looking at the same piece (both healers need their 2-piece and neither have pants), we will see if the pants are BiS for a specific class to maximize the upgrade. If all things are equal, we have a roll among the 2-4 members that qualify for the piece.

My group was pretty chill about gear though. If there were any disputes, the raid leader would simply take the piece and RE it for schematics (and mats pre-2.0.)
That's the way I could see it. Bit hesitant to use it as an argument because I don't wanna look like I'm putting healers at the bottom, but I can fully agree. Belt/Bracers/Set pieces all have armorings which are best for tank, and mods which are good for both. Thus 50% for DPS/Heals, 100% for Tanks. Ones with enhancements are a bit more friendly to DPS/Heals, but still. We care more about mod/barrel/hilt/enhancements (when I DPS) vs the armorings (which I care most about as tank).

I also agree with the specific piece. I was part tempted to go look at Kell Dragon pieces for each person in our raid and say "Ok the boots are terrible itemization for our X, Y, and Z, but BiS for our L" etc. But for now I wanted to settle for just the basics.

Carlenux's Avatar


Carlenux
08.17.2013 , 09:17 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by MiralukaJedi View Post
So, my guild has decided on a new gearing method for the raid. While I'm fine with new gearing methods, I'm a bit worried this is going to be stupid. In short, they assign based on benefits of the raid. Sounded cool, but then came the terrible logic of 'Sure a chest would be great for the tank, but a squishy DPS taking less damage during AoEs would be better'. I went "what?" And "Ok, the off hand would help a healers heal and then the DPS." (Because enrage timer isn't an issue when I'm carrying someone who is 500-1000 DPS behind <.< )

As such, I would like it if people in full or mostly Kell Dragon and those that do Nightmare Raiding at the end level would provide a few basic answers.

I doubt the raid leader will listen, but hoping with enough end game raiders he might. If possible list your class, guild, progression etc. I figure more information the better.

First off, for those doing Nightmare raiding

Q: If you were assigning pieces to roles, how would you do it? Example: A main hand drops and you want the most benefit to the raid, who do you give it too? A chest drops? Etc. (Weapons are the key question here, but list whatever)

For those in full Kell Dragon:

Q: As a DPS what's your DR and class? Knowing this can show how minimal a difference the armor rating makes. I pointed out that my gunslinger in level 35 gear has 18% vs a sniper in full 72s with 22%, but I figure a 55 in Kell Dragon vs our 55s in Underworld would be nice to have the numbers.

Q: Healers, how huge a difference was going from 72 barrel/hilt/offhand/mainhand to a 75 one? For DPS, how huge a difference was it?



Mainly, as a whole I'm curious what you all view the gearing priority as. I'm pretty sure I know the answers, but I think a bunch of people all agreeing (if a consensus was reached) would be more convincing then one DPS going "Uhhhh...I don't need a chest its hardly any DR and DR isn't my job."
thats interesting, Prioritizing gear is fine, its being smart, now it requires two things"group deciding what to prioritize" and TeamWork players, also there are many ways to do Loot.

What we do is: we basically Do all the Rolls for the whole operation before we start... i start bracer roll (bracer/belt anything shadowed are free rolls) everyone roll... relic (dps - then tank first) -boots... limiting persons to 1 win per week.

We obviously prioritized OH/MH to dps - then heals... Relics to Dps Then Tanks... dps probably the most important for two things, normally healers can get use of many shadowed pieces, because they can use crit (besides the healers that dont like it, thats their own style) but all in my guild does, so yeah... Tanks can improve from shadowed pieces as well, since they drop good mods/ enhance + OH more often, 174 DPS armoring > 168 until you can get the right armoring For Offhand.... where for dps theres only 1 type of item that drops power / surge enhancement and healers can roll for it too, and even if they win set pieces, most come with awful stuff, so for a full 14 pieces set, u need to win like 18 stuff as DPS.

we basically go until 8 people win something need.. then start doing free rolls on the extra stuff since there are 10 drops, so two people win 2 weekly.... At this point of the content, where all my raiders are 11-13/14 KD gear BIS, we Allow everyone to "ask" for an item, so before we do the Rolls, i ask who wants something, lets say i just need 2 relics, i call relic, if someone else needs TWO relics and calls for it we /roll for it, otherwise its mine... someone ONLY needs implant, same thing, that way majority of the people win the stuff they NEED the most, and majority of the time, everyone wins what they need, without prioritizing anyone over someone, and being unselfish.

in my point of view, in this game, dps should be the first geared always... healers are mostly skills, you will hardly "need" gear as a healer to be good, our healer have healed with her alt merc full nim tfb with 150-69s arkanian and non optimized set bonuses, just as good as she does with her main, everyone survives, gear helps, but not needed.
For a tank, all armorings its a 1-2% AT MOST dmg reduction increase, i will say it is more around the 1%, and the ratings its probably 1-1.5% improve on shield/absorb/defense, this is an important improve, but again, you can live without it... as my own experience too, ive tanked with a ssin with 150 set bonus armorings 69s/72s mix Pre (2nd nerf) DG and killed, same way my PT with blue augments tanked full Both operations, if healers are good, you wont notice difference.
Now for dps the problem is, improving 100-200 dps is huge, having 600+ dps from 4 dps improving 150.. its huge for most fights since normally enrage timers are the hard part, also faster dps help fights like, Warlods, Super intense Phase 1 healing, normally is harder if phase is 2.5 mins long... if its 1min45sec long, its a lot less to heal, thx to your deeps.

hope that helps, also on a side note, its NEVER smart (in my opinion) to prioritize gearing the "worst" dps in your group, you can do two things, recruit someone else, or help him (if hes really under performing), but if lets say you are 2 snipers, one doing 2600 other doing 2000.... then when he gets 5-6 pieces of 174 he starts doing the numbers u were doing with 168 gear, its bad, hes under performing, you should NEVER prioritize a bad player with gear over someone better to help him improve to "decent" numbers because his skills cant, thats stupid, you should reward your best dps so he can improve more from upgrades and do awesome numbers... a bad dps will improve 50dps with new gear since hes being bad, a good dps will improve 150... 2000 / 2750 is better than 2050 / 2600 each ... everyone should be able to win gear, but, if you deciding between giving something to the good vs bad dps, give to the good, hes the one helping you progress, not the one holding group back....

PD: consider bad someone thats under performing for his class, you cant compare lets say, sorc vs mara dps, sorc doing 200-300 less in a fight is not under performing, now if u have two snipers one doing 500 less, or something like that, thats the problem.
Hmaull // Carlenx // Carlenix // Pyrotec // Invinc // Hwynn

MiralukaJedi's Avatar


MiralukaJedi
08.17.2013 , 09:30 PM | #6
In hind sight, bit worried I made another DPS sound bad during my first post. They're actually pretty good in most fights. I was just surprised at how our Nightmare Dreadguard runs have been looking in numbers.

Not sure how various classes should look in the nightmare Dread Guard fight. (Our progression team is Merc/Operative/Sniper/Marader when we have our main team). For first phase with Heirad (ashamed to say thats where we are still currently at) what order would you think they SHOULD be? Assuming all playing class to the best.

Carlenux's Avatar


Carlenux
08.17.2013 , 09:34 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by MiralukaJedi View Post
In hind sight, bit worried I made another DPS sound bad during my first post. They're actually pretty good in most fights. I was just surprised at how our Nightmare Dreadguard runs have been looking in numbers.

Not sure how various classes should look in the nightmare Dread Guard fight. (Our progression team is Merc/Operative/Sniper/Marader when we have our main team). For first phase with Heirad (ashamed to say thats where we are still currently at) what order would you think they SHOULD be? Assuming all playing class to the best.
operative will always win that fight, if played wrong, you can deploy orbitals in the back and not hit all 3, people like buffing numbers and not helping group, so i assume maybe with op healers u throwing all orbitals on top of everything + corrosive grenade hitting 3... for our first kills, including pre nerf (first real hard fight) we had tanks moving from orbitals at start, and sniper orbital in transition, so we didnt buff other bosses at all.... you should be finishing heirad between 3.4-3.8k if doing that, sniper 3.3k or something, mara 3k and merc 2.7-2.8k... then with movement mara will lose more dps, snipers numbers will go down since no AoE Buff, and op running around depends on luck... merc should stay constant 2.5k or something.
Hmaull // Carlenx // Carlenix // Pyrotec // Invinc // Hwynn

MiralukaJedi's Avatar


MiralukaJedi
08.17.2013 , 09:43 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Carlenux View Post
operative will always win that fight, if played wrong, you can deploy orbitals in the back and not hit all 3, people like buffing numbers and not helping group, so i assume maybe with op healers u throwing all orbitals on top of everything + corrosive grenade hitting 3... for our first kills, including pre nerf (first real hard fight) we had tanks moving from orbitals at start, and sniper orbital in transition, so we didnt buff other bosses at all.... you should be finishing heirad between 3.4-3.8k if doing that, sniper 3.3k or something, mara 3k and merc 2.7-2.8k... then with movement mara will lose more dps, snipers numbers will go down since no AoE Buff, and op running around depends on luck... merc should stay constant 2.5k or something.
That makes it sound a bit better. I was wondering if there was something about the first phase that the Operative/Sniper were usually well ahead of the merc. We don't tend to pad the numbers with hitting each since we're working on our first kill (no need to make it harder by buffing them) but even still Marader/Sniper tend to be back and forth, I tended to be top, but the merc was way behind me for that fight. I was wondering if it was something with mercs in that fight or something normal. 2.7-2.8k vs 3.4-3.8k is a 1k difference which is about where it tends to be when we run it. Usually about 600-700, but it did hit a 1k once.

Thanks by the way for that answer. I was kinda surprised each time in TORparse since it SEEMED (from my limited merc knowledge) to be no problem. Pop a tracer and that's all the build up they need (rest is self buffs, not debuffs). While target swapping for Operative requires two GCDs of dots being put back up vs one tracer.

Edit: Misread that. Those numbers were with AoE cheating (makes me feel better since I don't hit that high single target)

Ausgelebt's Avatar


Ausgelebt
08.17.2013 , 11:22 PM | #9
In my group everyone just rolls and highest roll gets it. There are no problems, as everyone will get everything it is just about time. As long as you don't have enrage problems(should give relic and main hand to dps first). You're set.

If a tank gets too much damage give him a relic.

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ArissArgile
08.17.2013 , 11:30 PM | #10
I play a healing Sage in Severity Gaming. We've cleared 16m NiM Asation and 16m NiM S&V, both world first 16m. We cleared NiM Asation right before NiM S&V was released so we didn't have the 75 lvl gear from NiM S&V yet. Utilizing a form of loot council to gear a raid when new content with higher gear comes out is going to be dependent on the raid. We saw early on the healing was intensive in the NiM Dread Guard fight, while recognizing a tight enrage timer. Our raid dps is top notch and thus allowed us to consider gearing the healers and tanks a little bit first. I believe we gave the healers a few pieces and the tanks, but since we moved through the content rather quickly we were able to open up the loot to free roll pretty quickly. If I'm not remembering correctly it's because I raid for raiding, never been about the loot for me in SWTOR or my 5 or so years in WoW. So I don't pay much attention to loot, I just figure it will come eventually.

Our raid usually has 2 scoundrel and 2 sage healers and we felt the sage puddles were going to be very important for raid healing so we got a few set pieces. I believe next the tanks got a few set pieces for mitigation before it was opened up to free roll. The main and offhand are going to be the best upgrades for dps and healers because of the force power, tech power... If the tanks aren't having a problem with holding aggro then I would think the set pieces with higher stats and higher armor would be the most beneficial for them.

You have to consider the make up of your raid and what will be most beneficial. If your dps is not top notch then it may be important to get them their main hand and offhand first.