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So Darth Traya is...


DarknessInLight's Avatar


DarknessInLight
08.03.2013 , 09:46 AM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by QwibQwib View Post
Revan achieved breaking people's wills through how terrible war is, and through subtle manipulation of echoes. He also used nexuses of the Dark Side to break the wills of Force Users, but he didn't really start doing that until after he had been captured by the Emperor. As far as I'm aware, we don't know how the Emperor was able to break the wills of the Sith on Nathema, we just know that he did. But manipulating and turning people is hardly unique to the Sith Emperor. The technique I was specifically referring to was the Sith ritual that gave him immortality, which is unique to only him. I doubt even the Hand know the details of the ritual.

Nihilus and the Sith Emperor had wildly different goals, though they essentially had the same endpoint. To be accurate, Nihilus was physically incapable of having a goal, because he was essentially a walking corpse. All he cared about was satisfying his hunger. But, since he was a hole in the Force, he could never have his fill. If left unchecked, he would have consumed every living thing in the universe, and then he would starve to death, because there would be nothing left to feed on. The Sith Emperor, on the other hand, is himself essentially a Force nexus and very much has goals. If left unchecked, he would consume every living thing in the universe, but not because of hunger. He wanted to have unlimited power and to live forever. They are on opposite sides of the same spectrum. Both sides are death, but the Emperor would have been eternal and Nihilus would have been nothing.
I agree with what you have to say about Darth Nihilus. He was nothing more than a monster, created in the aftermath of the events on Malachor V. Darth Vitiate, however, is a vicious, cunning and resourceful Sith Lord.

Since he supposedly shares the ability to consume life from living beings, as Nihilus did, one can reason that Nihilus may have been a Jedi Knight at one point. We know that Kreia trained Darth Sion as her apprentice. It's possible that Sion broke a Knight who went to fight the Mandalorians and took him as an Apprentice, because Kreia had no knowledge of Nihilus until he appeared to confront her with his master in the Trayus Academy.

Its also possible that during her exile, she traveled to the outer rim and discovered either Korriban or Dromund Kaas. I think Korriban would be more likely since she clearly created a Sith Order of her own, based upon the Rule of Two, which at the time was her and Sion. I'll even go one further.....what if, during her exile from the Jedi Order, she discovered Korriban, and learned of its secrets? Remember that Darth Vitiate's Master was/is entombed in the Valley of the Dark Lords, so if she discovered the Tomb of Marka Ragnos, she might have gained some of the knowledge that Vitiate possessed, if not more.

As far as Revan goes, remember that Kreia was his Jedi Master when he was a Padawan. She taught him so much of what she knew, including whatever she may have learned of the Dark Side. She appointed herself Darth Traya when she was exiled out of the order for her unorthodox training methods.
Jedi do not fight for Peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading, as slogans always are. Jedi fight for Civilization, because only Civilization creates Peace. - Jedi Master Mace Windu

QwibQwib's Avatar


QwibQwib
08.03.2013 , 02:30 PM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by DarknessInLight View Post
I agree with what you have to say about Darth Nihilus. He was nothing more than a monster, created in the aftermath of the events on Malachor V. Darth Vitiate, however, is a vicious, cunning and resourceful Sith Lord.

Since he supposedly shares the ability to consume life from living beings, as Nihilus did, one can reason that Nihilus may have been a Jedi Knight at one point. We know that Kreia trained Darth Sion as her apprentice. It's possible that Sion broke a Knight who went to fight the Mandalorians and took him as an Apprentice, because Kreia had no knowledge of Nihilus until he appeared to confront her with his master in the Trayus Academy.

Its also possible that during her exile, she traveled to the outer rim and discovered either Korriban or Dromund Kaas. I think Korriban would be more likely since she clearly created a Sith Order of her own, based upon the Rule of Two, which at the time was her and Sion. I'll even go one further.....what if, during her exile from the Jedi Order, she discovered Korriban, and learned of its secrets? Remember that Darth Vitiate's Master was/is entombed in the Valley of the Dark Lords, so if she discovered the Tomb of Marka Ragnos, she might have gained some of the knowledge that Vitiate possessed, if not more.

As far as Revan goes, remember that Kreia was his Jedi Master when he was a Padawan. She taught him so much of what she knew, including whatever she may have learned of the Dark Side. She appointed herself Darth Traya when she was exiled out of the order for her unorthodox training methods.
Pretty interesting stuff. If I remember correctly, Kreia was exiled for her unusual philosophical views and training methods. Her teachings weren't Dark Sided, per se, but she was definitely an advocate of skepticism, which could easily lead to her pupils falling to the Dark Side. Like in the case of Revan, and possibly a few other unnamed apprentices. It's also interesting to point out that Atris thought she had perished in the Mandalorian Wars. Which meant that she was exiled before the battle of Malachor. That leaves a large gap of time between the Mandalorian Wars and when she set foot in Trayus Academy, which was at some point after the conclusion of the Jedi Civil War.

She could have visited Korriban, but I was under the impression that she only visited after falling to the Dark Side at Trayus Academy. The Sith she led were not her own creation. They were whatever remnants that survived the Jedi Civil War, as well as Sion (who'd been around since the war with Exar Kun) and Nihilus, who was born of Malachor. Kreia took them both as apprentices, until they exiled her sometime before the events of KOTOR2. She never visited Dromund Kaas, though. She always talked about how she didn't know where Revan had gone, or where the True Sith were, only that she knew they were out there somewhere, and she almost always spoke in hypotheticals.

I don't know if she ever set foot inside the tombs, as when you visit Korriban, all the tombs had been covered up or otherwise ruined. But it's certainly possible that she did.
"Amor omnibus idem" - "Love is the same for all"

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
08.03.2013 , 03:32 PM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by QwibQwib View Post
Revan achieved breaking people's wills through how terrible war is, and through subtle manipulation of echoes. He also used nexuses of the Dark Side to break the wills of Force Users, but he didn't really start doing that until after he had been captured by the Emperor. As far as I'm aware, we don't know how the Emperor was able to break the wills of the Sith on Nathema, we just know that he did. But manipulating and turning people is hardly unique to the Sith Emperor. The technique I was specifically referring to was the Sith ritual that gave him immortality, which is unique to only him. I doubt even the Hand know the details of the ritual.

Nihilus and the Sith Emperor had wildly different goals, though they essentially had the same endpoint. To be accurate, Nihilus was physically incapable of having a goal, because he was essentially a walking corpse. All he cared about was satisfying his hunger. But, since he was a hole in the Force, he could never have his fill. If left unchecked, he would have consumed every living thing in the universe, and then he would starve to death, because there would be nothing left to feed on. The Sith Emperor, on the other hand, is himself essentially a Force nexus and very much has goals. If left unchecked, he would consume every living thing in the universe, but not because of hunger. He wanted to have unlimited power and to live forever. They are on opposite sides of the same spectrum. Both sides are death, but the Emperor would have been eternal and Nihilus would have been nothing.
Mindwash is the Emperor's skill, he used it quite a few times in the JK story.

Nihilus also had goal, to feed his hunger. The Sith Emperor is also crazy and wanted to devour all, why would Traya want to see everything being consumed and everyone lose their free will? That's against everything she stands for.

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QwibQwib
08.03.2013 , 04:05 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Mindwash is the Emperor's skill, he used it quite a few times in the JK story.

Nihilus also had goal, to feed his hunger. The Sith Emperor is also crazy and wanted to devour all, why would Traya want to see everything being consumed and everyone lose their free will? That's against everything she stands for.
That's right, she wouldn't want to see everything be consumed and everyone lose their free will. But she didn't know about the Emperor, and therefore it would have been impossible for her to know about the Emperor's plans. And as I said, and as Kreia herself said, Nihilus wasn't capable of having any coherent thoughts because he was no longer a man; he was a hole in the Force and was a slave to his hunger. I'm pretty sure she even said that he was already dead, but that his body had yet to fall.
"Amor omnibus idem" - "Love is the same for all"

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
08.03.2013 , 04:14 PM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by QwibQwib View Post
That's right, she wouldn't want to see everything be consumed and everyone lose their free will. But she didn't know about the Emperor, and therefore it would have been impossible for her to know about the Emperor's plans. And as I said, and as Kreia herself said, Nihilus wasn't capable of having any coherent thoughts because he was no longer a man; he was a hole in the Force and was a slave to his hunger. I'm pretty sure she even said that he was already dead, but that his body had yet to fall.
Who said she didn't know the Emperor? She knew the existence of his Empire, why wouldn't she know about him?

Nihilus' action is what made his horrible, just like the Emperor.

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QwibQwib
08.03.2013 , 06:32 PM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Who said she didn't know the Emperor? She knew the existence of his Empire, why wouldn't she know about him?

Nihilus' action is what made his horrible, just like the Emperor.
Not once did Kreia say anything about the Sith Empire, aside from knowing that it exists. She doesn't even know if they're pureblood or not, just that they are "True" Sith, not merely Dark Jedi who take up the moniker. Really, she doesn't even know about them firsthand, just that Revan found something beyond known space, and that he went off to (presumably) to fight it. He never talked to anyone about what he saw. Likewise, Kreia knew from the holocrons at Trayus academy that Malachor and Korriban were on the edges of the old Sith Empire (the one wiped out in the Great Sith War). Putting two and two together, she came to the conclusion that there must be remnants of the Empire still out there. Even still, she always talked in conjecture. Which meant she didn't really have hard evidence that they were still around. And besides, knowing that there's a Sith Empire out there does not mean you know there's an omnicidal, nigh omnipotent God-Emperor who'd been planning revenge for nearly a millennium.
"Amor omnibus idem" - "Love is the same for all"

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
08.03.2013 , 07:30 PM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by QwibQwib View Post
Not once did Kreia say anything about the Sith Empire, aside from knowing that it exists. She doesn't even know if they're pureblood or not, just that they are "True" Sith, not merely Dark Jedi who take up the moniker. Really, she doesn't even know about them firsthand, just that Revan found something beyond known space, and that he went off to (presumably) to fight it. He never talked to anyone about what he saw. Likewise, Kreia knew from the holocrons at Trayus academy that Malachor and Korriban were on the edges of the old Sith Empire (the one wiped out in the Great Sith War). Putting two and two together, she came to the conclusion that there must be remnants of the Empire still out there. Even still, she always talked in conjecture. Which meant she didn't really have hard evidence that they were still around. And besides, knowing that there's a Sith Empire out there does not mean you know there's an omnicidal, nigh omnipotent God-Emperor who'd been planning revenge for nearly a millennium.
Because it's not related to her topic?
The "True" Sith Empire was created in 4900 BBY, 900 years before Exar Kun's rise. Of course there would be information about the Emperor, especially he already showed power before the Great Hyperspace War. The Empire was almost purely his creation, why wouldn't his information be known?

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QwibQwib
08.03.2013 , 07:53 PM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Because it's not related to her topic?
The "True" Sith Empire was created in 4900 BBY, 900 years before Exar Kun's rise. Of course there would be information about the Emperor, especially he already showed power before the Great Hyperspace War. The Empire was almost purely his creation, why wouldn't his information be known?
Because Vitiate made the Empire in secret? He and his followers wouldn't have left any information behind about their new empire because they were escaping genocide at the hands of the Jedi. If they left any clues as to their whereabouts or even that they still existed, the Republic would track them down. They wandered through space for twenty years, making random hyperspace jumps, before they found Dromund Kaas because they didn't want to be followed. Dromund Kaas was chosen specifically because records of its location had been lost. On top of that, the Jedi pretty much destroyed all the Sith relics they could find. So even if they had left information behind, it almost certainly would have been lost, especially after 900 years.
"Amor omnibus idem" - "Love is the same for all"

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Slowpokeking
08.03.2013 , 10:31 PM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by QwibQwib View Post
Because Vitiate made the Empire in secret? He and his followers wouldn't have left any information behind about their new empire because they were escaping genocide at the hands of the Jedi. If they left any clues as to their whereabouts or even that they still existed, the Republic would track them down. They wandered through space for twenty years, making random hyperspace jumps, before they found Dromund Kaas because they didn't want to be followed. Dromund Kaas was chosen specifically because records of its location had been lost. On top of that, the Jedi pretty much destroyed all the Sith relics they could find. So even if they had left information behind, it almost certainly would have been lost, especially after 900 years.
The Jedi were able to recover the information of his history to create the Empire, so there should be enough record showing it. They made those recording even before they rescued Revan.