Juggernaut suggestions for our Representative

Just throwing something out there that those of y'all that PvP can shoot down... Why not incorporate Retaliation into the Vengeance mix? Give it some sort of utility in Vengeance - another bleed, chance to proc Destroyer, whatever. Right now, it's just an attack off of the GCD, which is nice, but given its expense, I would think it would be a good place to add on something.

Obviously it would be of minimal consequence us PvEers, since we only see Retaliation in specific circumstances

Well that's an exceptional Idea. It would however force us as "dps'ers" to encourage increasing our defence ratings. It would have to be a remarkable ability for someone to switch their gear simply to capitalize on. Only immortal/vengeance hybrids would truly reap rewards from this, for they use retaliation more in their rotations.

..unless this new idea you propose would be linked to sabre ward. So... (insert new retaliation ability thing here) provides... (x amount damage/or new ability proc) during the use of sabre ward. LoL sorry that may seem confusing, point I'm getting at is, currently retaliation for me seldom, to never, ever procs unless sabre ward is up.

I was thinking of it in conjunction with Saber Ward, yes, but not exclusively so like you suggest. The ability just seems, to me, to be wasted at the moment. Immortal gets boons from using it, and Marauders have talents to spec into, but the spec called Vengeance has nothing to improve their counter-attack ability.

I was thinking of it in conjunction with Saber Ward, yes, but not exclusively so like you suggest. The ability just seems, to me, to be wasted at the moment. Immortal gets boons from using it, and Marauders have talents to spec into, but the spec called Vengeance has nothing to improve their counter-attack ability.

The underlying problem is the threat drop, Every other class has a free threat drop with assassins/operatives the best of all giving 100% threat drop aswell as secondary benifits from stealthing. Having a threat drop tied to another ability that costs resources is crazy. Jugs need a totally separate threat drop equal to the other classes ( chaff flare/countermeasures etc ) on a 45sec CD.

If you are worried about ED becoming yet another tank CD, well, it already is in many respects, threat has 0 impact at all in PvP so it can be used without thought, and a decent immortal tank can find uses for it already in PvE especially since u can offset alot of the threat lost with clever use of taunts, even now its the best CD to deal with lightning field damage on Dread Guards NiM, it practically offsets all the dmg except the last hit.

Also i think people are over estimating how much it actually heals on a single target boss you are lucky to get 4-5 ticks in the 10sec it lasts, thats only 12-15% health and that is totally relying upon u saving rage for the heal running the risk of letting crushing blow/retaliation buffs dropping off, which are better than a tiny heal, And in an AOE tanking situation, outside of reflect jugs have the weakest mitigation anyway with the lowest shield/absorb so a couple more heal ticks from ED really isnt going to throw the balance out the window.

Adding a flat DR across the board is certainly going to make it worse., Vengeance and Rage both have skill points specifically Linked to Enraged Def, THAT is where any DR buffs should be added like vengeance already has.

Personally i already like how the heal mechanic works, Even the rage spent per heal is fine, as it is you need to be clever about when and how you use it to get the most out of it, where as adding a flat DR % and a flat heal% to it is just gonna turn it into another "o-****" CD.

The one thing i do like though is adding a longer Cooldown on it as Base and using the skill points in Venge/Rage to reduce that back down. i think 2minutes is too long, 90secs the same as Endure Pain as they work very well together.

So tbh,
Remove the threat drop completely
Increase base CD to 90secs
Remove the initial rage cost
Keep the rage spent per 3% heal on taking damage with 1sec internal CD.
Add a 22.5/45 second CD per point to "Deafening defense" in Vengeance Tree
Add a 22.5/45 second CD per point to "Through passion" in the Rage tree

Now for me, the main question is Do we give "Through passion" the same DR % base as Vengeance, or do people want it to be more unique to the Rage tree, since Vengeance has more DR overall with "unstoppable" ?

Someone already proposed a high DR buff with it reducing rapidly over time, i quite like this idea, but i have another one which is abit crazy and would be totally unique to rage:

Through Passion - Reduces the active CD of Enraged Defense by 22.5/45 second per point, in addition Enraged Defense Grants 3 stacks of ( insert appropriate buff name ) increasing Damage reduction by 25%, Stacks are consumed when taking Direct damage ( basically not dots ) Lasts 10 seconds

Again these are just personal opinions/ideas based on playing experience and looking at the ideas already in this thread.

As to the point that this thread is supposedly going off topic, i think the community brain storming, raising ideas and concerns is the best way for the Class Rep to construct his Questions to put to the Devs as and when he does. Just looking over the posts there are already 2 "questions" that are high up there, the 3rd not so clear.

My view so far is
Question 1 - Enraged defense: how it works for all 3 classes and the threat drop. Was it designed as a PvP ability with the threat drop for PvE thrown in as an after thought?
Question 2 - Rampage Proc: should it Be as RnG based as it is already? was ravage intended as the Focus of the spec or is it Just a Gimic/Bonus
Question 3. no idea........ Slows? Chilling scream is definately not inline with other class slows in my opinion after the change to make it free/low global not available to all specs, Yes its aoe, yes it has no CD but it costs a global and alot of resource. virtually every class has a passive slow attached to 1 or more abilities.

Rage is Fine as it is. it has Oppressor , the most mobile dmg of the specs, and escape from roots with obliterate

Vengeance needs a passive slow fixed to one or more of its bleeds, the 15% movement boost to shien form was a good start but still not enough having to rely on chilling scream with is high rage cost Adding a 50% slow to the bleed from impale would work, would last 6seconds and can be applied every ~9seconds, would only ever effect 1 target at a time.

Immortal, adding a 6second 30% slow to "Crushing Fist" would be great, PvE tanks dont take ( or shouldnt ) thrown gauntlet so a slow attached to smash without having to waste a global on Chilling scream, which could be used in getting threat. 30% in PvP isnt exactly game breaking and Chilling scream will overwrite it with a more powerful slow, at the cost of a global

Ok so now that we have all pretty much discussed solutions to these issues I think we can all agree what our questions should be about. Now number 3 is the only tank question I could think off, because we are in a very good place at present. Now because each AC will get to rotate, we will effectively be given the opportunity to ask 6 questions, so It would be a good Idea to coordinate with the Guard rep to ensure we don't double up on questions.

• 1) Vengeance lives and dies by its rampage proc. The dps difference between a good proc streak and a bad one seems to vary significantly, with vengeance dps topping out with very good luck. We recognize that the proc makes our spec more dynamic and fun to play, but we would all prefer a little more consistency in our parses. What are the devs thoughts on this?
  
  
• 2) Enraged Defense is on odd and awkward cooldown when comparing its cost to what it does. Many pve juggs feel the threat drop component is not worth the rage cost to use. On the pvp side of things, juggs feel that its not as effective as it should be when used as a defensive tool when compared to its very heavy rage cost. What is the intent behind the rage cost of Enraged Defense, and are there any plans to revisit its design?
  
  
• 3) Juggernaut tanks are the only tank class that has to spend resources and a global cooldown to apply an aoe snare in the form of a separate ability, chilling scream. Many jugg tanks feel that being the most restricted to 4m compared to the other tanks, that applying an aoe snare should not be as costly as it currently is. We can spec to reduce its rage cost, but that still leaves to issue of its GCD. What do you guys think about this?

It's been quite some time, so maybe I'm misremembering, but did not Immortal used to have a talent to reduce rage cost and GCD of the AoE snare? I seem to recall it being just spammed non-stop in Huttball matches back in the day.