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8/2 Sentinel/Marauder Questions

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sentinel / Marauder
8/2 Sentinel/Marauder Questions
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TheCourier-'s Avatar


TheCourier-
07.30.2013 , 03:36 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Maelael View Post

I would ask though, as I wasn't around for the golden age of stun bubbles, what was different in 1.3 with watchman?
Watchman's self healing was strong in patch 1.3, and plasma blades increased burn damage by 15%. Patch 2.0 reduced plasma brands' damage by 9%.

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
07.30.2013 , 04:05 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by JKnightJ View Post
I play a Combat Sentinel and my observations are from a strictly PVE end-game perspective.

I agree that Combat has far too much RNG influencing ability use and can result in you "mashing buttons like a coked-out ferret" to maximize dps. It's liveable, but I'd like to see the RNG factor reduced in some small way.
I agree entirely, the beauty of Combat pre 2.0 was a fluid rotation. Related: is the reoccurence of Alacrity buffed MS a bug or change by design?
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Maelael's Avatar


Maelael
07.30.2013 , 04:10 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by TheCourier- View Post
Watchman's self healing was strong in patch 1.3, and plasma blades increased burn damage by 15%. Patch 2.0 reduced plasma brands' damage by 9%.
Interesting. I could easily see doubling both as is (or 15% for Plasma Blades as in 1.3) for JUST PvP and it would make it a more playable spec. Not so sure/sold on the heals, but a better set of meaningful ticks on the DoTs would make it more worth it. Ironically were talking about a whole 9%, but I think coupled with the better heals I've heard about it could be more viable.

Given the way stats work and how they changed in 2.0 (Crit and Surge specifically), was Watchman better off with the old way the stats worked? Keep in mind I've only been here since April - not that this game was all that difficult to pick up, I just wasn't here for the old stuff so I have no point of reference.
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kennethdale's Avatar


kennethdale
07.30.2013 , 08:01 PM | #34
Off the bat I'd like to say that I think our AC (Knights and Maras) are in a great place at the moment. Each of our three trees is viable to a certain degree in both PvP and PvE (Rage/Focus is extremely situationally viable in PvE conversely Annihilation/Watchman is situationally viable in PvP) with each having its own strengths, weaknesses, and play styles allowing players to chose which tree fits their own style and use it for the majority of fights. Annihilation/Watchman is fantastic at long, single target fights; Carnage/Combat shines when there is minimal target switching between targets of high health and when there are single low health adds; Rage/Focus comes into its own when there are a large number of low health adds or in any situation where AoE is useful. That is, in my opinion, the most balanced of any AC in SW:tOR.

Before I jump into opinions on the points offered by others I'd like to give a real world example of the ways in which you can tailor each spec to a specific fight based on your own raid composition: When my previous guild was progressing through HM TFB we had a night of great progress on Operator IX followed by one plagued with healer latency issues (both healers were <1000ms). I'm personally an Annihilation/Watchman guy but I can play Carnage/Combat well and do so for fights that it makes sense for, like Op IX, but no matter what I did the DPS were still dying. In my experience (the math folks will probably correct me) hitting Berserk/Zen in Annihilation/Watchman heals the raid for ~2k a person every ~20 seconds. Not much, but I decided to give it a shot (since I had an idea about how to keep Annihilator/Merciless up by timing my last Annihilate/Merciless Strike on the core to be my last strike, hitting an add in the middle, then leaping at the next core). First attempt as Annihilation/Watchman, we downed it. Its all about tailoring the tree to your playstyle.

Now, a few thoughts about the some of the proposed questions/changes: First off, I think taking away Annihilator/Merciless altogether is too much of a PvE/PvP buff for Annihilation/Watchman. Perhaps simply extending it by ~5 seconds would be enough to remove a lot of the pressure to reapply it. I don't think we need to "fix" any of the trees because I fear doing so would lead to favoring one trees too much (you'll find that is the theme of my post). As for Carnage/Combat, I think the current RNG is what balances the spec against the smoothness of Annihilation/Watchman but I can see the benefit of making gore a static buff until an ability is used, especially in PvP. Rage/Focus is where I think I will start to go against a lot of sentiments in the community...As it stands, Rage/Focus is the only Marauder/Sentinel tree with viable AoE (actually, I'd be willing to argue the best AoE DPS in the game currently) and if their single-target DPS were buffed that would make it extremely difficult to continue to play other specs in light of the increased survivability, massive AoE, and similar single-target DPS that Rage/Focus could bring. It would simply invalidate all the other Marauder/Sentinel trees and that is not something I would like to see (especially since I am not a fan of Rage/Focus in the slightest :P).

That's what I think, flame, correct, or agree to your heart's content.
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TheCourier-'s Avatar


TheCourier-
07.30.2013 , 10:01 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
Each of our three trees is viable to a certain degree in both PvP and PvE (Rage/Focus is extremely situationally viable in PvE conversely Annihilation/Watchman is situationally viable in PvP)
The only time that watchman spec works for PVP is Voidstar defense. Rage and carnage are better than watchman for every single warzone, by a longshot.

TheCourier-'s Avatar


TheCourier-
07.30.2013 , 10:03 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Maelael View Post
Interesting. I could easily see doubling both as is (or 15% for Plasma Blades as in 1.3) for JUST PvP and it would make it a more playable spec. Not so sure/sold on the heals, but a better set of meaningful ticks on the DoTs would make it more worth it. Ironically were talking about a whole 9%, but I think coupled with the better heals I've heard about it could be more viable.

Given the way stats work and how they changed in 2.0 (Crit and Surge specifically), was Watchman better off with the old way the stats worked? Keep in mind I've only been here since April - not that this game was all that difficult to pick up, I just wasn't here for the old stuff so I have no point of reference.
Watchman worked way better with the old crit rating because 33% crit chance was very easily achievable, which worked well with the self healing and crit bonus damage to dots.

kennethdale's Avatar


kennethdale
07.30.2013 , 10:07 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by TheCourier- View Post
The only time that watchman spec works for PVP is Voidstar defense. Rage and carnage are better than watchman for every single warzone, by a longshot.
Hence why I said "situationally viable". Though, as pointed out earlier it is wonderful for dueling, which is PvP but not necessarily a relevant part, albeit. I just worry buffing any of the specs too much in any way will bring the eventual nerf-hammer down upon us thus ruining the near-perfect balance we currently have.
55 Mercenary { Drekevac } rDPS || 55 Marauder { Kryu } mDPS
55 Sorcerer { Jahaerys } Heal
55 Juggernaut { Caryu } Tank || 55 Assassin { Vellys } Tank

idnewton's Avatar


idnewton
07.30.2013 , 10:16 PM | #38
IMPORTANT: I am a Marauder player, not a Sentinel player. I'll do my best to state the Sentinel version of whatever I am naming, but if I miss something, don't Gibbs slap me for it.

To be honest, I am rather content with Sent/Mara in general. That doesn't do much for me or anyone else on the thread however, so I'll post some minor adjustment ideas.

Annihilation PvP:
There are some incredible Annihilation PvP players. Sadly, the fact is that a really good enemy healer can shut down one via dot cleansing. A spec like Vigilance Guardian / Vengeance Juggernaut has dots as well, but they don't rely upon them half as much as Annihilation does. The ability to cleanse dots, however, is a part of the game, and I don't see the game as a whole benefiting at all from having an already-effective dps class use uncleansable dots. As for the acidblade-type ability (permanent buff until used, then applies dot) idea proposed by other members of the discussion, I feel like class mechanic uniformity partially destroys the unique feel of each class. I think Marauder/Sentinel should keep its unique dot system as it is. I'm not 100% behind this idea, but perhaps it'd make sense to lower the cooldown on Deadly Saber so that the dots do not have to be built up every time, they continue at three stacks if used on cooldown, but fall off it a player fails to reactivate them.
PS: I am in favor of changing the 6 stacks of juyo form to 3 (and thus doubling the effect of each stack) to effectively reduce the 'get-going' time of Annihilation without messing with any damage values or other abilities.

Carnage PvP: I don't see too much need for change with this spec. It requires skill to use, yet is effective if used correctly. In the wrong hands, it suffices as cannon fodder, which is also appreciated. Just a minor suggestion, perhaps the Ravage/Master Strike root effect could be made more effective by giving the attacker temporary immunity to stuns and knockbacks. Just a thought, if you don't like the idea that's chill with me. I'm not a very big Carnage PvPer (or really, Marauder PvPer at all).

Rage - Smashmonkey PvP: I'm perfectly content where it is. Powerful as an aoe spec should be, not overly strong (though clearly on the edge).

Annihilation PvE: I see no reason for this spec to change. Fun, fluid, effective.

Carnage PvE: The spec is good, as is obvious by the crazy number people hit with it. However, the RNG on the opener is rediculous. The problem is that you really can't change that without redesigning half the spec, or more than that. To be honest I think the cheif issue lies with the Gore/VT (??? / Dispatch) proc. It's nearly impossible to know whether to use Gore or not, because while you may not have a Ravage -> Force Scream rotation lined up, you might get the proc the next second, and thus completely wasted a free Gore. There has to be a better way to handle that.

Rage PvE: I don't really see much reason for this spec to change either. I don't really think it was ever designed for single-target ops bosses, so I don't see a reason to change it to such.


Just my two cents. You can disagree (and you probably will) but remember we're all here to make the class more balanced.
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surharijan's Avatar


surharijan
07.31.2013 , 12:49 AM | #39
I've been thinking about the current trend in Operation mechanics that penalise Annihilation/Watchman. I've come to the conclusion that it's pretty much the same issue as when in PVP. Here's hoping that if/when it does get fixed, one will fix the other.

keeroo's Avatar


keeroo
07.31.2013 , 01:26 AM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by TheCourier- View Post
Watchman worked way better with the old crit rating because 33% crit chance was very easily achievable, which worked well with the self healing and crit bonus damage to dots.
First of all, gratulations to the winner. Secondly, KeyboardNinja seems to do a really nice and responsible job to put the major class issues on the table.

I myself played Watchman for a very long time. After the 2.0 release, Watchman lost its strength in PVP because of a very simple reason that is not really pinpointed here: The extremely strong crit nerf.

Watchman was based on DPS in combination with the sustain and survivability. I played on +40% crit including buffs. Now, the base crit chance and the crit stat cruve became so low that the crits proccing self heals are not there anymore on the previous level. Best practice in PVP for DPS is a 0 crit gear.

So my major point here: The 2.0 crit nerf killed the sustain and survivability with self heals of the watchman tree.

My idea to solve the issue would be a buff on the procs for self heals.

(Yes, Zen got 6 instead of 4 stacks now. But still, the major issue is the crit based self heal without active Zen after the extremely strong crit nerf hammer)
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