Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Wakalord's concerns/ideas for DPS assassins/shadows

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Jedi Consular > Shadow
Wakalord's concerns/ideas for DPS assassins/shadows

Berjiz's Avatar


Berjiz
07.30.2013 , 05:27 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by thejollygreenone View Post
first of all, 2600 is a number only two infiltration shadows have EVER been able to reach. two. so if we're gunna take a shadows dps lets do a realistic number, shall we? in pre KD gear an infiltration will be lucky to break 2500. and as to your 30% burn point, go play infiltration shadow in a boss fight and see how long that phase lasts, and how much of a dps increase you'll actually get. i promise you the only increase you will see is after a drop because we have trouble sustaining dps after a minute and a half. so by the time a boss gets to 30% and all this becomes available, we have another 20 seconds, maybe, to use it. from my experience this boost is only enough to make up for the dps you've already lost from the fight dragging on too long. TLDR; if you're going to speculate on a spec, please speculate on how said class ACTUALLY preforms.
Yeah the increase on the sub 30% is way to low.

Some numbers:
Two chars, an assasin and something else. Assuming that the time to kill is completly even, aka the last 10% takes as long time as the first. Assasin does 10% less dps(which is somewhere around what the dummy parses show). To catch up with the 10% less dps for 70% of the time how much does the dps increase have to be?
It has to be(100-70*0.9)/30=1.2333... of normal dps. So the increase needs to be 23% higher for the last 30%. Considering that the sub 30% usually is faster than rest an dps increase of about 25% would be appropiate.
We are not even near 23% as it is now. Kitru made a calculation about was it was a few days ago in someother thread.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.30.2013 , 05:55 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Berjiz View Post
Kitru made a calculation about was it was a few days ago in someother thread.
Right here. It was one of my first forays into the Assassin forums to check out Xinika's question thread, and I felt compelled to math.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

thejollygreenone's Avatar


thejollygreenone
07.30.2013 , 06:11 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Berjiz View Post
Yeah the increase on the sub 30% is way to low.

Some numbers:
Two chars, an assasin and something else. Assuming that the time to kill is completly even, aka the last 10% takes as long time as the first. Assasin does 10% less dps(which is somewhere around what the dummy parses show). To catch up with the 10% less dps for 70% of the time how much does the dps increase have to be?
It has to be(100-70*0.9)/30=1.2333... of normal dps. So the increase needs to be 23% higher for the last 30%. Considering that the sub 30% usually is faster than rest an dps increase of about 25% would be appropiate.
We are not even near 23% as it is now. Kitru made a calculation about was it was a few days ago in someother thread.
i just searched a bit for the post your referring to, they calculated on the basis of a madness/balance build, and the change in damage that's being referred to is actually the change of parsing on a dummy to on an operation boss in a group, which includes the 30% hp damage boosts. the number given was 11.7% of a damage increase.
so now, my request is that you do the math for the specific subject you're speaking of, or change your statement to go with the specifics of the post your referring to.
personally i'd like to see the math for the comparison that you originally intended to make. i'm curious about the outcome but lack the motivation/math background to find out for myself
EDIT: kitru beat me to it, lol

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.30.2013 , 07:21 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by thejollygreenone View Post
so now, my request is that you do the math for the specific subject you're speaking of, or change your statement to go with the specifics of the post your referring to.
I actually did that during that post. The 11.7% represents the DPS increase from a raw dummy parse without the armor debuff. I also listed the non-armor debuff contribution (i.e. averaged out execute improvements) which amounted to a 5.567% increase in total DPS.

If you're looking for the raw increase to DPS during the execute phase rather than the values averaged out across the entire fight, just divide by .3: the 5.567% increase for Balance gets pumped up to 18.5567%, which means that DPS jumps by almost 20% during execute phases. For Infiltration, it's a bit simpler since it's just a raw 6% end multiplier from Judgment and a 41% increase to CS damage from Spinning Strike (SS does ~82% more damage and replaces half of your CSs). If you can throw me a decent Infil dummy parse to go off of, I can slap those into a comparable increase for you.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

thejollygreenone's Avatar


thejollygreenone
07.30.2013 , 07:27 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I actually did that during that post. The 11.7% represents the DPS increase from a raw dummy parse without the armor debuff. I also listed the non-armor debuff contribution (i.e. averaged out execute improvements) which amounted to a 5.567% increase in total DPS.

If you're looking for the raw increase to DPS during the execute phase rather than the values averaged out across the entire fight, just divide by .3: the 5.567% increase for Balance gets pumped up to 18.5567%, which means that DPS jumps by almost 20% during execute phases. For Infiltration, it's a bit simpler since it's just a raw 6% end multiplier from Judgment and a 41% increase to CS damage from Spinning Strike (SS does ~82% more damage and replaces half of your CSs). If you can throw me a decent Infil dummy parse to go off of, I can slap those into a comparable increase for you.
here's the best one i have, but i know theres a few up people who are up in the 2600s, i could find you one of those too if you'd rather.
http://www.torparse.com/a/356883/31

Berjiz's Avatar


Berjiz
07.30.2013 , 08:03 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I actually did that during that post. The 11.7% represents the DPS increase from a raw dummy parse without the armor debuff. I also listed the non-armor debuff contribution (i.e. averaged out execute improvements) which amounted to a 5.567% increase in total DPS.

If you're looking for the raw increase to DPS during the execute phase rather than the values averaged out across the entire fight, just divide by .3: the 5.567% increase for Balance gets pumped up to 18.5567%, which means that DPS jumps by almost 20% during execute phases. For Infiltration, it's a bit simpler since it's just a raw 6% end multiplier from Judgment and a 41% increase to CS damage from Spinning Strike (SS does ~82% more damage and replaces half of your CSs). If you can throw me a decent Infil dummy parse to go off of, I can slap those into a comparable increase for you.
That insteresting so it "only" needs another 5-7% to get to decent levels.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.30.2013 , 08:10 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Berjiz View Post
That insteresting so it "only" needs another 5-7% to get to decent levels.
Honestly, I'd like to see something like a 50/50 split between improving the execute range and improving outright DPS (~2.5% improvements on each side), though it might be interesting to see Shadows as the undisputed execute kings as part of the class "schtick". Any fight with an intense execute phase would have a Shadow DPS as the most valuable DPS, even if the mean DPS is on the lowish side.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.30.2013 , 08:21 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by thejollygreenone View Post
here's the best one i have, but i know theres a few up people who are up in the 2600s, i could find you one of those too if you'd rather.
The raw DPS doesn't matter so much as the percentages being correct for all levels of "top DPS".

If CS represents ~20% of total DPS, the 41% increase in DPS from Spinning Strike conversions would equate to an 8.2% increase in DPS from that. Stack it up with the 6% multiplier and you get a 14.7% increase in DPS during execute phases.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

thejollygreenone's Avatar


thejollygreenone
07.30.2013 , 09:02 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Any fight with an intense execute phase would have a Shadow DPS as the most valuable DPS, even if the mean DPS is on the lowish side.
any fight with an intense execute phase, or any fight with frequent execute phases maybe? but thats a different discussion.
Quote:
If CS represents ~20% of total DPS, the 41% increase in DPS from Spinning Strike conversions would equate to an 8.2% increase in DPS from that. Stack it up with the 6% multiplier and you get a 14.7% increase in DPS during execute phases.
i guess the 6% execute bonus including spinning strike contributes a lot more than i expected. reduced force cost will help, and i was thinking something along the lines of CS seems to be a lot more detrimental to be spamming in infiltration than in balance, maybe it's exactly the reduced force cost, it adds a reprieve from the costly CS spam. however i'm not sure if all this is quantifiable, you'd be the person to tell me ^.^ perhaps these are all factors that you've accounted for, this is where my lack of math skills becomes a problem, lol.

DaftVaduhhh's Avatar


DaftVaduhhh
07.30.2013 , 11:08 PM | #30
BW has comprehensively shown that they can't handle the math and simulation to maintain such sub-30% talents, and you want them to invest more into it?

I'd rather they peeled them back, nerfed SS a bit and increased force damage. Their PvP solution has failed IMO.
Daftvaduhh - 55 Shadow - GM of <Beyond Redemption> (The Harbinger)
La-femme - 55 Sage, Woklobster - 55 Guardian, Opfreely - 55 Sentinel
Drworm - 55 Commando, Rollface - 55 Vanguard, Leeloo'd - 55 Scoundrel, Rolling-deep - 55 Gunslinger