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Electronet and Force Barrier...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Electronet and Force Barrier...
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HelinCarnate's Avatar


HelinCarnate
07.30.2013 , 09:39 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Ghost_Spectre View Post
While what you state may be true, the fact that the tool tip for Electro Net specifically mentions "high mobility and escapes," prior to "such as" (meaning examples) means that it should not stop Force Barrier from activating and countering that Crowd Control Measure.

If they do change the tool tip to indicate that Electro Net can do this, they will have to change it from a CC to specific attack ability with secondary affects. Furthermore, the tool tip for Force Barrier will have to state that it cannot break Electro Net. They do that, then they'll have to include anything that is similar in nature to Electro Net, such as slows, roots, and snares that are associated with attack powers. In other words, they will render Force Barrier a near useless defensive measure from what it original was intended to do.

I cannot believe they intended Electro Net to be the ultimate CC that nothing can break it. And before you say, use your CC breaker on it, I did and it did not break it. And yes, my CC breaker was available and it, like Force Barrier went on cool down.
So you can believe that Force Barrier can be the ultimate CC breaker that nothing can get through but not that Electronet can prevent it?

Force Barrier is treated like an escape. Escape is something that gets rid of CC effects. With the exception of electro net, that is exactly what it does.
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Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
07.30.2013 , 09:44 AM | #22
I think Electronet was meant to be something over the top, something unbreakable. If that would not be the case, each CC breaker would destroy it, as well as cleanses... that would be too easy to counter and it would not fulfill its role. Following this logic, no CC-breaker and cleanse should break it, and Force barrier should not except.

Still following the same logic, although Force barrier is not made unavaliable, it conflicts with what is allowed and what is not, and that's probably why your Force Barrier instantly stops and goes on CD.
I think the only fix you can hope to see, is that Force Barrier will be greyed out and made unavaliable when under the effect of Electronet, like Force Speed. I may be wrong, but if they fix it to allow to break Electronet, then all other means should work as well, and the ability will lose its interest.

In addition some may argue that even if it's a "defensive power", it's absolute defense, and so it surpass even "escape powers" and can be used as a replacement or equivalent or even be considered an "escape power".

Ghost_Spectre's Avatar


Ghost_Spectre
07.30.2013 , 09:47 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
find it odd as I have tested this with guildies and used it in pvp myself and seen people cc break my net to remove the impairing part and then bubble. Also snipers roll will remove the impairing part but the dot remains ticking for dmg. Hell this morning I had someone cc break my net to remove the impair and run off with the dot ticking.
Imagine my surprise when my CC breaker did not break it but went on cooldown.
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Ghost_Spectre's Avatar


Ghost_Spectre
07.30.2013 , 09:56 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by HelinCarnate View Post
So you can believe that Force Barrier can be the ultimate CC breaker that nothing can get through but not that Electronet can prevent it?

Force Barrier is treated like an escape. Escape is something that gets rid of CC effects. With the exception of electro net, that is exactly what it does.
Here is where you are missing the point of Force Barrier. It is a defensive measure. It states it stops ALL damage, all control effects, and anything else applied to the caster of the barrier. It is not an escape, period. You cannot move while channel it. You cannot cast anything but the barrier, thus a defensive measure, NOT an escape. Why is that so hard to understand?
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
In addition some may argue that even if it's a "defensive power", it's absolute defense, and so it surpass even "escape powers" and can be used as a replacement or equivalent or even be considered an "escape power".
As stated above, it is a defensive measure and nothing more. There’s no argument about it. No Sage or Sorcerer who channels Force Barrier can do any other action but channel the barrier. No damage, stuns, slows, roots, or other measures can affect the caster. Heck, I’ve popped the barrier on Lucky and nothing he did (or any other champion or world boss) could affect me. However, somehow some lowly Merc/Trooper can affect me and prevent me from using Force Barrier with Electro Net? This is not working as intended. Force Barrier is not an escape it is a pure defensive measure and nothing more or less.
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Ghost_Spectre's Avatar


Ghost_Spectre
07.30.2013 , 09:58 AM | #25
While everyone's input is appreciate it, it is not what I'm looking for. I want a definitive answer from the developers on this important matter. Not interpretation from players.

Eric or Amber, I want to hear from you ASAP on this matter, please.
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Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
07.30.2013 , 10:41 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Ghost_Spectre View Post
As stated above, it is a defensive measure and nothing more. There’s no argument about it. No Sage or Sorcerer who channels Force Barrier can do any other action but channel the barrier. No damage, stuns, slows, roots, or other measures can affect the caster. Heck, I’ve popped the barrier on Lucky and nothing he did (or any other champion or world boss) could affect me. However, somehow some lowly Merc/Trooper can affect me and prevent me from using Force Barrier with Electro Net? This is not working as intended. Force Barrier is not an escape it is a pure defensive measure and nothing more or less.
Nobody argues that's not a defensive measure but that's an absolute defensive measure. The fact that you do nothing during it is not the problem, it is that once you use it, its defensive potential is so high that you don't need an escape anymore, like if it acted like one.
An Assassin using Force Shroud is still vulnerable to weapon damage, a Marauder using Undying Rage or a Sorcerer using Static Barrier are still vulnerable to CCs. These moves do not free their user from the need to escape.
However Force Barrier protects you from anything. Considering that you don't need to escape anymore, make people wonder if it can be considered as "escape" as well. These wonders are legit since it's hard to define accurately the difference between an "absolute defense" and an "absolute escape". In the end, both seem to have the same result : protecting from anything.

As for me "absolute defense" and "absolute escape" is the same thing, and such powers can be both called "defense" and "escape".

That's a point that devs should give their opinion about. The fix that will come will depend on how they see this. If for them absolute defence equals escape, then Barrier should be forbidden during Electronet. If they think it doesn't mean escape, then they have to make Barrier doesn't calncel itself upon activation (the fact that it removes Electronet or not will not matter as the damage will be resisted).
But whatever, the ability do not act properly. Something that is not supposed to be allowed, shouldn't be allowed to be used and wasted, such as something that should work shouldn't cancel without reason.

DavidDemaree's Avatar


DavidDemaree
07.30.2013 , 10:46 AM | #27 Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. Next  
Ghost_Spectre,

I'm sorry that the poor descriptions in the tooltips have confused you. This works precisely as designed. The Hindered effect is not considered a controlling effect. Controlling effects are considered to be effects that cause you to lose control of your character's ability to move - things like Stun, Blind, Immobilize, and Slow. When Electro Net is used on you, notice that Slowed and Hindered are separate effects. You can use Force Barrier while Slowed, but not while Hindered. The Hindered effect allows you to maintain control of your character while active, but it specifically prevents you from using certain escapes such as the ones already listed in Electro Net's tooltip and Force Barrier.

Force Barrier is considered both a defensive cooldown and an escape, since it allows you to completely escape taking damage while it is channeled. If you are Hindered, and find yourself in a situation where you would like to use Force Barrier, then you may use Unbreakable Will/Force of Will to remove the Hindered effect. Then you can activate Force Barrier. Again, I apologize for the poor tooltip descriptions in this regard, as Unbreakable Will/Force of Will tooltips do not state that they remove Hindered (but they do).
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Grayseven's Avatar


Grayseven
07.30.2013 , 10:53 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Ghost_Spectre View Post
According to the tool tip for Force Barrier:


However, the Electronet does not allow for the use of the Force Barrier and automatically puts it on cooldown when you attempt to use. Note the asterisk around all. It is specific, meaning not some, or most, it means ALL control measures.

I want to know why this has not been fixed since it is most certainly a bug as it does not follow what the tool tip states.

No other CC, stun, slow, or control measures do this, why does Electronet not respect Force Barrier's ability. Conversely, when will the developers fix this?


My take on this is simple...

If you use Force Barrier, you are immune to the listed effects while it is channeled. If you are being affected by certain abilities and THEN use Force Barrier, you are immune to subsequent abilities but may still be affected by things already cast on you. It does not specifically state that it removes those effects already on you, only that you can use it while controlled to become immune to additional effects.

No one ability should ever be without a counter of some sort. I think it's unreasonable to expect Force Barrier to make a player invulnerable to effects already on them AND anything being cast after it is channeled.

Never mind, Oz has spoken...
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Ghost_Spectre's Avatar


Ghost_Spectre
07.30.2013 , 11:04 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
Sorcerer using Static Barrier are still vulnerable to CCs.
Static Barrier is a defensive shield, like Force Armor, that absorbs a preset amount of damage. After which it drops leaving the sorcerer/sage vulnerable to attack when the damage received exceeds the amount it is capable of absorbing. The Force Barrier does not absorb damage, it stops it. You are immune to all attacks, CCs, stuns, roots, and slows. The Static Barrier/Force Armor do not offer any protection to CC's, stuns, roots, or snares. Both are defensive measures. One could argue that Static Barrier/Force Armor are escapes too; however, they are not. Like Force Barrier, both are defensive measures. Only the Static Barrier allows the sorcerer/sage continue to act.
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
However Force Barrier protects you from anything. Considering that you don't need to escape anymore, make people wonder if it can be considered as "escape" as well. These wonders are legit since it's hard to define accurately the difference between an "absolute defense" and an "absolute escape". In the end, both seem to have the same result : protecting from anything.
The problem is people want to apply the meaning of ‘escape’ to the Force Barrier. By their reasoning, any form of defensive measure is an escape. That would mean there are no defensive measures based on their beliefs and the definition they are applying to Force Barrier. The tool tip for Force Barrier is specific in its definition of what this defensive measure does. It absolutely protects the caster from all damage, stuns, roots, snares, and CCs for ten seconds. Channeling leaves the caster unable to do anything but stand there channeling the barrier. There is no escape. You are rooted in place by a self CC that protects you from whatever is thrown at the you.
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
As for me "absolute defense" and "absolute escape" is the same thing, and such powers can be both called "defense" and "escape".
Your definitions are a skewed then. By your own admission, there are no defensive measures, only escapes. That is like saying a starship with a battle shield around it is an escape mechanism because it allows a ship to “escape” from being damage. That is a misrepresentation and misconception of what defensive measures mean. In other words, you are painting everything with a very large brush to make it fit your belief regardless of what the true definition states and means.
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
That's a point that devs should give their opinion about. The fix that will come will depend on how they see this. If for them absolute defence equals escape, then Barrier should be forbidden during Electronet. If they think it doesn't mean escape, then they have to make Barrier doesn't calncel itself upon activation (the fact that it removes Electronet or not will not matter as the damage will be resisted).
We agree. It is my fervent hope that they will admit the mistake of allowing Electro Net to stop the use of Force Barrier and fix it. If they say otherwise, then I am going to have a very serious problem with their ruling as such as I mentioned my intention to react to earlier in this thread. I do not make states like that lightly, matter of fact; I never make them, especially publically.
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
But whatever, the ability do not act properly. Something that is not supposed to be allowed, shouldn't be allowed to be used and wasted, such as something that should work shouldn't cancel without reason.
Agreed.
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Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
07.30.2013 , 11:04 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by DavidDemaree View Post
Ghost_Spectre,

I'm sorry that the poor descriptions in the tooltips have confused you. This works precisely as designed. The Hindered effect is not considered a controlling effect. Controlling effects are considered to be effects that cause you to lose control of your character's ability to move - things like Stun, Blind, Immobilize, and Slow. When Electro Net is used on you, notice that Slowed and Hindered are separate effects. You can use Force Barrier while Slowed, but not while Hindered. The Hindered effect allows you to maintain control of your character while active, but it specifically prevents you from using certain escapes such as the ones already listed in Electro Net's tooltip and Force Barrier.

Force Barrier is considered both a defensive cooldown and an escape, since it allows you to completely escape taking damage while it is channeled. If you are Hindered, and find yourself in a situation where you would like to use Force Barrier, then you may use Unbreakable Will/Force of Will to remove the Hindered effect. Then you can activate Force Barrier. Again, I apologize for the poor tooltip descriptions in this regard, as Unbreakable Will/Force of Will tooltips do not state that they remove Hindered (but they do).
While I completely agree with you there's still one point where it doesn't work as intended : according to Ghost_Spectre, when in an attempt to use the Force Barrier while "forbidden" by Electronet, the ability is considered as having fired and goes in CD. However, other escapes do not act like this : they are simply forbidden and saved for when Electronet wears off, their CD do not initiate in an attempt to use. Having the CD of Force Barrier starting do not seem normal and is detrimental, especially considering its length.

If Force Barrier cannot be stopped from starting, and if we consider its effect is the polar opposite of Electronet, then Electronet could as well be destroyed by Force Barrier at the same time it cancels itself. Like this, Force Barrier will have removed an hostile effect, and Electronet would have stopped Force Barrier from being an escape.