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NERF : Guardian Tanks

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
NERF : Guardian Tanks

Leafy_Bug's Avatar

07.28.2013 , 11:39 PM | #1
Nerf Guardian Tanks. In the current state of the game, they are a faceroll class where you get a significant advantage compared to other classes, especially Shadow. We have recently cleared SV HM with a 31k guardian duo without bonus set or any optimizations. Guardian cooldowns are too good at the moment and the way Jesse Sky is pushing content to favour them even more is ludicrous.

Conclusion : bring the tanks in line and someone tell Jesse Sky that SWTOR is not his playground where he changes stuff as he deems fit slapping the thousands of Shadow players in the face.

akabane_k's Avatar

07.29.2013 , 12:10 AM | #2
first shadows were imba, now its guardians, when is it pt's turn?

ArchangelLBC's Avatar

07.29.2013 , 01:48 AM | #3
I'd honestly rather see the other two tanks buffed. There's been enough nerfs. Jesse Sky should probably quit though if he's not even gonna test content with shadows.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.


Ephesia's Avatar

07.29.2013 , 02:46 AM | #4
Guardians were always the weaker class in comparison to shadow and powertech before, it has only been after 2.0 that they were rebalanced. So no, Guardians are not op in the slightest, they were weaker before and they are at the place they were supposed to be in the first place.
Ephesia, Level 55 Jedi Guardian
Tomb of Freedon Nadd (EU)
Member of Catalyst

Marb's Avatar

07.29.2013 , 03:05 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Ephesia View Post
Guardians were always the weaker class in comparison to shadow and powertech before, it has only been after 2.0 that they were rebalanced. So no, Guardians are not op in the slightest, they were weaker before and they are at the place they were supposed to be in the first place.
Threat wise, yes. Juggs have been brought into line and now all three tanks are quite comparable in terms of tps. The tank balance itself though, got thrown out the window when they changed Jugg mitigation (which was always well balanced pre 2.0 with the other tanks).

Jugg tanking is all pros and no cons I'm afraid, we have the same damage profile as a vanguard tank with the best cooldowns in the game, and also our own version of force shroud: saber reflect. We were literally given all the things that made the other two tanks stand on their own. Juggs are hands down the best PvE tanks in the game right now.

leto_cleon's Avatar

07.29.2013 , 03:06 AM | #6
It really is a problem with how the damage dealt by the operations bosses are designed rather than disparity between the tanking classes. Personnally, operations bosses should have different mechanics for different tanks (and even tanking combinations).

Leafy_Bug's Avatar

07.29.2013 , 03:25 AM | #7
For two months we have asked for tank balancing and not nerfs. I think the shadow community is the most understanding and we do not condone how BioWare does class balancing by taking from one class and giving to another. It took over a month to get a reply in our forums form the community manager and not Jesse Sky. Which is a bit ironic because Jesse Sky felt the need to reply, instead of Eric, in the 'separate HM/NiM mode lockouts' thread. We have asked nicely, we are still asking nicely but this time using a language BioWare speaks : nerfing one class at the expense of the weaker. Having said that, I will promote, from this day forth, Guardian Tank nerfs and if you think I am a fanboi who hates the game and cries for nerfs all the time, check my post history for the past months and you will see that all my posts say ' guardians should not be nerfed, they are okay'.

I have changed my tune as this is the method which gives results. Shadows were nerfed all the time due to the daily cries in the PVP section. The majority cried nerfs and the minority cried balancing. The majority won so we are taking a page out of that book and we support Nerfs. So having said that please find below :

1. Saber reflect is an OP skill that is not bugged like resilience. Saber reflect does not have the 200% and 5% chance to be hit. Saber reflect works all the time and is an OP skill favoured by Jesse Sky. Look at the content design leaning towards saber reflect and completely ignoring resilience. Either both work or none at all, that is balancing. We are talking about nerfs here so increase the cooldown on it, like you did with resilience when you re-did the skill tree.

2. Guardian defensive cooldowns are OP. Guardians are the only tanks that have a 100% survival chance at Sunder in HM taking two 'The End' in a row. The other tanks cannot do this and another point in favoritism. Increase the coodldown of saberward as it was pre- 2.0.

3. Guardian mean mitigation profile is poor, however, it has perfect spike mitigation profile. Drop the spike mitigation profile and improve the mean mitigation profile. This brings the tanks closer in terms of spike damage and increase the chance of the guardian almost dying in cases where other tanks do and the guardian facerolls.

4. A poorly geared Guardian is able to clear SV/TFB HM 8 man 16 man without any issues. The vanguard follows closely but the shadow needs to be BIS and played at a very high skill cap to actually stay alive. This discrepancy should not exist, nerf is needed to bring the tank in line with the others.


07.29.2013 , 04:09 AM | #8
I've posted this in another thread, but I wanted to reiterate that I don't think well-designed dice-rolling games should incorporate 'I win' buttons. Such buttons include Guarded by the Force, Force Barrier, Resilience, and Saber Reflect. Such abilities are the reason I quit pvp. I am baffled as to why Bioware released two ridiculous cooldowns (Saber Reflect and Force Barrier) in 2.0, and Saber Reflect of all things incorporates a
  • 1 minute cooldown
  • damage immunityof all types except melee, with melee of course being the most basic type of damage in the game and therefore typically easily mitigatable and low-damage
  • damage reflection
  • AOE threat on a huge radius and no target cap

Let's look specifically at its intention in design, the niche this ability fills. I get that each tank class needs some trash-clearing utility; Vanguards get neural surge (hard AOE stun 2.5 seconds, 45 sec cooldown) and smoke grenade. Guardians get Awe (8 sec AOE stun, breaks on damage, 60 sec cooldown), their damage reduction from AOE taunt, and now the aforementioned Saber Reflect. Shadows get Resilience and stealth cc, and their Force Wave and Spike give functionality that is kinda like Awe/Neural Surge, but of course much worse.

You already knew that Guardians have steady damage mitigation (cf Shadows, who have a 50% chance to drop dead every time if they initiate combat on trash), close to immediate in-combat proc buildup(oh god i have to click Bladestorm AND Rebuke???; cf 3 stacks Energy Blast, 3xHS TKT), and Awe, which is a decent trash-clearing cooldown. You also knew that in PVE bossfights, the attack is typically used to absorb one major attack, so its effectiveness could have been similar in PVE bossfights if it was 'next attack reflected' rather than 'all attacks for 3 sec' and its utility could have been good on trash (basically still an easy mode AOE taunt, a bit of damage reduction and damage redirection too). You already knew that Guardians had the best suite of defensive cooldowns.

So what purpose does this serve, other than to indulge the childish desires of an immature game designer? What urgent need does Saber Reflect satisfy? And furthermore, how did this go live? Sure, maybe -one guy- designs all your class balance. I'm clearly not a fan of that idea, but I can deal with it. But how did this get released? Surely someone must have noticed that this wretched ability was going live and said "hey is this a typo? it should be on a 10 minute cooldown right?"

Maybe if you had given Saber Reflect to Shadows and given it a 10 minute cooldown I could see an argument for it being balanced. I'd still disagree about its balance immediately on the grounds that it's still an 'I win' button, but at least if I heard someone argue that it was balanced I wouldn't think they're a gibbering idiot.

Panzerfire's Avatar

07.29.2013 , 04:10 AM | #9
Guardians won't ever be directly nerfed because of bad PR. If they'll do it, it won't be mentioned and will be denied for months as they've done with Shadows/Assassins

Another good option would be to buff Shadows/Vanguards and increase the difficulty of the content with regards to tanks/healers only, anyone else think that everything came from the fiasco of the 2.0 patch when they screwed up all tank mitigation and then balanced it according to Guardians only.

leto_cleon's Avatar

07.29.2013 , 05:02 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Panzerfire View Post
anyone else think that everything came from the fiasco of the 2.0 patch when they screwed up all tank mitigation and then balanced it according to Guardians only.
^ Yup.