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Jack of all Trades Tank Class?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Jack of all Trades Tank Class?

Lokyn's Avatar


Lokyn
07.13.2013 , 08:49 AM | #1
Hey all. I'm looking for the most versatile tank class in the game. By versatile I'm meaning a tank class that can fill a competitive roll in most aspects of the game as tank spec & Dps spec (pve and pvp).

As an example most would be able to relate to I'll use a druid from WoW as a example of what I'm interrested in finding. I played a druid in WoW, a setup in playstyle I am always drawn to in many mmo's before and after wow (the jack of all trades type class). The druid I could roll as heals, tank, dps, and caster. If I got bored with 1 aspect of the class or guild needs a different roll filled, I could switch spec and not have to grind another toon to max level to fill that role.

Due to this particular time in my life I'm very limited in play time and unable to experiement with each toon enough to find out which fills the rolls I'm always interrested in playing most. This is why I'm hitting up you veterans, hoping to pick your brain to find a match or near match to this problem of mine.

So with no more ado, here are my 4 questions.

Again this only applies to Tank class toons since tanking is my main roll love.

Tank spec:
1) Which tank specced class proves more to be a Bonus rather than hHindrance in any given pug PvP Warzone?
2) Which tank specced class proves more to be most useful/desired in end game PvE raiding? Jug/Guard first, PT/Vanguard 2nd I understand from research. Sound correct?

DPS spec:
3) Which Tank class specced as DPS proves more to be a Bonus rather than a Hindrance in any given pug PvP Warzone?
4) Which Tank class specced as DPS proves to be most useful/desired in end game PvE raiding?

Thanks in advance.
"The difference between treason and patriotism is only a matter of dates." Alexandre Dumas

Snarkasms's Avatar


Snarkasms
07.13.2013 , 10:26 AM | #2
People might correct me, but I think you're looking for guardian. They're the best PVE tank at the moment, you can respec to focus/smashmonkey spec, which is best in class in PVP, and if you want to DPS in PVE, vigilance is very good.

Lokyn's Avatar


Lokyn
07.14.2013 , 06:54 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Snarkasms View Post
People might correct me, but I think you're looking for guardian. They're the best PVE tank at the moment, you can respec to focus/smashmonkey spec, which is best in class in PVP, and if you want to DPS in PVE, vigilance is very good.
Thanks for your input. I was hoping Guard/Jug weren't tops for most aspects of playability since they were widely considered undisputed strongest in end game tanking.

I figured the difference in class types might be far beneficial in various ways such as Shadow perhaps great as node capping due to stealth, perhaps Vanguard best at guarding nodes w/ healer due to aoe streangth (these are just random guesses from reading online, I have no personal experience here). How valuable these differences are and what each tank class brings to variety of aspects of the game I'll just have to watch and see while playing.

Again, thanks for your input. Looks like guard/jug is closest to Jack of all trades Tank class.
I
"The difference between treason and patriotism is only a matter of dates." Alexandre Dumas

Orionan's Avatar


Orionan
07.14.2013 , 07:58 AM | #4
shadows are the best tank node takers/guards because of utility abilties like stealth alongside great defensive cooldowns. sentinals are more stable because of their heavy aromur alongside the def cooldowns they have.

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
07.14.2013 , 10:22 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Orionan View Post
shadows are the best tank node takers/guards because of utility abilties like stealth alongside great defensive cooldowns. sentinals are more stable because of their heavy aromur alongside the def cooldowns they have.
Guardians not sentinels.
Hotwired @ Not Good Enough @ ToFN

-DG-'s Avatar


-DG-
07.19.2013 , 07:15 AM | #6
If I focus at the main question:

"Hey all. I'm looking for the most versatile tank class in the game. By versatile I'm meaning a tank class that can fill a competitive roll in most aspects of the game as tank spec & Dps spec (pve and pvp)."

There's one(+ mirror obviously) tank class that got access to all of these things(in one way/spec or Another):

- Melee shield+absorb.
- Melee defence.
- Melee dps.
- Semi ranged dps.
- Instant "heal button"(+ "dps button" + "reduce damage button + more).
- Melee Self heals, possible each 4.5 sec.
- Ranged damage ability that also heals(dependant on procs).
- Force pull.
- AoE "force push".
- Stealth.
- Stealth CC.
- Phase shift.
- ... and more of course.

All 3 tank classes got their own unique flavour - but should be the Shadow/Assasin that in itself "mirror" most/all class roles + sub roles(regarding the "healing role", it's about self-only heals, that ofc can't compare with a "real" healer class).

Shadow/Assasin: The most versatile tank class in the game.

At second Place I'd say the VG/PT, that got in-melee ranged dps and defence/shield AND consistent(spamable) ranged dps(granted, not very high - but ineed alot better then "fluff" - with some kind of ranged "burst" to go along with that).
I'm one of those individuals that love, and can't help myself, to have each and every class hybrid/hybridish. And I become bored by always "following protocol" - Thus having fun on my VG(and doing quite ok) using it like a stealthish ranged dps(tank-dps hybrid). Fully aware of "it's not meant to be played like that" and that I'd be able to tank and dps alot better if I had focus on "be-in-your-face", and not play as a mainly ranged class.

Over time, I truly do my best when having fun - and gaming to me, equal having fun most of the time. Oh and no, I'm not a noob. ;]

Yngow's Avatar


Yngow
07.19.2013 , 07:42 AM | #7
For me the answer to all the OP questions is Jugg/Guardian.
Shadows/Assassins are suffering balance issues as both tank and dps so pretty much as it is now any shadow/sin in your group can be considered a hindrance, except *maybe* for PVP because of situational use of stealth and CC's and kinda nice burst dmg as a dps.
Powertech/Vanguard is suffering balance issues as a dps, specially on PVP since they have no burst at all and thats pretty much the main thing you are looking for in a dps on pvp. As dps for pve they do "good enough" but they stay on the low end of the dps right now without pretty much any other real advantage to the raid. As tanks for both pvp and pve they are very good tanks but as of now juggs are better for numerous reasons.
Juggs/Guardians are awesome both as dps and tanks, as dps they have one of the best burst and aoe specs in the game (smash spec) which is one of the best dps you can have in pvp and very good in raids for fights where you need either burst dmg or good AoEs, also since they have really awesome cds and use heavy armor they can hold themselves quite well in danger situations as an extra tank for a few secs (like holding a boss or something while a healer tries to get a tank up after he died for example), the other dps tree is very good single target dps. As tanks they are super buffed to a ridiculous level since they have the best cds in game and *also* best passive mitigation between all tanks, the ideal composition for a raid would for sure have 2 jugg tanks on it.
Empire/Republic of TAW - Prophecy of the Five
Illyan - Powertech ; Lellian - Jedi Sentinel ; Le'lian - Scoundrel ; L'aayla - Sith Juggernaut ; Harrden - Commando ; Lellyana - Sith Sorcerer ; Viagro - Sniper ; Lelsara - Jedi Shadow

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.19.2013 , 11:20 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by -DG- View Post
Shadow/Assasin: The most versatile tank class in the game.
You're stating those capabilities without really getting into what the other tanks get, not to mention that you're ignoring the fact that the OP asked about role and PvP/PvE versatility. Essentially, rather than just trying to quantify versatility of performance in a single role (and, honestly, as a tank, Guardians actually get more since they've got a lot more general combat utility; the only things that Shadows get that's actually an advantage is stealth and that's only really an advantage in PvP and while leveling) you should be looking at whether the class, as a whole, can perform in all 4 of the given pairings:

PvP + tank: All 3 can perform reasonably well, though Guardians are, de facto, the best main tanks whereas Shadows are only really node Guardians
PvE + tank: Shadows are at a substantial disadvantage because of massive spikiness problems; VGs and Guardians can both perform well, but, once again, Guardians are, de facto, the best tanks outright thanks to being borked as hell at the moment (tied with VGs for mean mitigation, best damage profile, best CD suite, best utility, all tanks have the same functional AoE and ST damage/threat, and easiest to play to boot)
PvP + DPS: VGs are pretty much worthless; Shadows are pretty good as Infiltration thanks to burst DPS; Guardians are amazing as either Vigi or Focus, with Focus being almost mindbogglingly simple for how well it performs
PvE + DPS: Once again, VGs are in a very sad state because they're lagging behind average DPS a fair deal; Shadows are in a worse state since they're lagging behind a *lot*; Guardians are in a very good place because, even if they're not explicitly top tier DPS, they've still got very good DPS that only lags behind the top tier by small amount.

If you go off of *that*, Guardians are, explicitly, the most versatile, based upon role and combat type. Guardians will excel at *whatever* you choose to do. VGs will only be effective as tanks. Shadows will only be effective as a specific subset of PvP tank (which is a *really* boring type) and PvP DPS with a single spec.

So, to answer the OP's question, it's Guardians, not Shadows or even Shadow tanks.

P.S. if you're going to put out a massive list of capabilities, stick to the things that *only* that class can do and how useful those capabilities actually *are* (hinthint: Phase Walk isn't *useful*, it's a gimmick) then either make note of what the class *can't* do or create similar lists for the other classes.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

-DG-'s Avatar


-DG-
07.20.2013 , 04:40 PM | #9
Quote:
"the only things that Shadows get that's actually an advantage is stealth and that's only really an advantage in PvP and while leveling"
I think/hope you'd agree with me, that for some people thats not the case. At least after that you've read my post.

I understand your point of view Kitru, not sure you see/understand mine though.
I've not answered all things, because I might agree with several, or just not see the relevance in others - And when posting this post, it might be more of "a wall of text" then what I'd like it to be(hm, or rather "novell/roman"). Thus cutting down on text. Also I'd like to Point out that English ain't my 1th language(I'm from over the pond - EU), and my "auto correct" ain't in English(and trying not to use it anyway) - thus, it's likely that my post have both grammar and spelling issues here and there. :]

Nope not ignoring, I suppose you skimmed the part where I pointed out what part I choose to answer(and that it's my perspective... well I might have made the mad decision to think everyone would understand this was my personal view)?
"If I focus at the main question:" - In response to:
""Hey all. I'm looking for the most versatile tank class in the game... ..."

It's not only because of this reason, but it could be because of this very reason alone = Yes, stealth(and what follows with it, such as instant re-stealth, etc). This holds true to me(likely not everyones truth though), and that's what I partly choose to convey - My "truth". And yes one could argue that "well thats because you're a *****, that you'd think like that". Also one could argue that numbers don't lie(numbers/calculations/statistics/etc, well you know that stuff, you're quite good at :] ).
Actually even seemingly "true" numberers do "lie", but that might be a discussion for another time, but to hint towards what I might be babling about. I'll add that it would seem that no one could(well at least no one seem to have) taken account of all the possible variables. Of course if all possible varables/factors could be identified and measured - Yes then one could possibly say "these numbers don't lie". But we seem to be nowhere near a situation such as that.

One could argue that "but Kitru(+ other people) have taken account of enough relevant factors/variables to make Kitrus words kling with more then enough of truths/facts". And yeah, to a big degree, I'd agree with that. But it's not in my flavour(nor, as said, my "truth/facts") - not regarding the main question("first question" might be a bit more accurate though).

You see Kitru, it would seem that the shadows/asassins most strong side/thing, would be that "it's a "real" hybrid". In it's core, a hybrid. Of course all classes in SWtor to this date, could indeed be called hybrids. As one could see it, it's something of a core-thingy, regarding the classes of SWtor, all classes could spec relatively high in two different spec trees(two different roles). The shadow/assassin(and remembering that we discussing "of the tanks" and not "of all the classes") have core abilites that provide the shadow/assassin with choices well beyond two, three and even beyond four "roles". Obviously neither one of the two other tank classes ain't restricted to just "two roles" - but those tanks would seem to lack that "real hybrid" thingy. Which cut down on the possible amount of roles. Less roles one could say, would indicate less versatile.

I might mention that I'm not only thinking of the "holy Trinity" tank/healer/dps, nor the tank/healer/melee/range kind of roles. Thats a too limited way of seeing/thinking(my opinion ofc). I've played my fair amount of mmorpgs, but mainly I'd say that DAoC(Dark Age of Camelot, a large scale RvR/PvP game, with lots of PvE(although rather boring PvE now a days)) would be my "home". And ... where to begin... Hm, no lets not make this the "the never ending text of all times", hehe.

One word - STEALTH. Stealth in itself yield more roles or if you'd like, several more sub-roles. It yields so much more utility(especially more so, since the class Sh./As. already got melee dps, short range dps, semicaster some kind of ranged dps + being a tank + being a semi-sub selfhealing class).

What I suggest is: Think/go beyond the "how PvE/PvP is supposed to be played" - and think in term of "whats possible, or almost possible, in the game as a whole - PvP, PvE, exploration etc(and yet several extra things to reflect upon, if one so choose - As a example: socialization(PwP: Player with Player, eh)) - Before, now and later in the game".

Quote:
If you go off of *that*, Guardians are, explicitly, the most versatile, based upon role and combat type. Guardians will excel at *whatever* you choose to do. VGs will only be effective as tanks. Shadows will only be effective as a specific subset of PvP tank (which is a *really* boring type) and PvP DPS with a single spec.
This is, in my mind, very dependant upon perspective and thinking. I agree that your answer, indeed is your answer(and likely a fair number of other peoples perceived "correct answer").

Here's some of my thinking and perspective:

- Guardians suck at(even as a half semi) ranged dps(as in to be able to keep continuing the ranged dps from "real" range).

- Guardians suck at being able to have some kind of reliable selfheal(from the perspctive of being able to do it while in battle, say about 2 times each 10th second - with tank spec and someone who could play in a optimized way, one could think that it would be quite much more than about 2 times each 10th second(thinking of everything else that shadows/assassins could use, to get some instant/panic heal) - but I'll settle for 2/10th, lol well, compared to me, you know those numbers better, so I skipp trying to explain that further).

- Guardians suck at stealthing(thus not good at scouting, not good at "silent/unnoticed capping in PvP, not as good to use as a "explore-class", not good at gerilla/harrasing capabilites, ofc also because of lacking spammable ranged dps/cc ... etc ... etc).

- ... I could probably find a couple of more, but these would seem more then enough.

Thus "this" perspective rank the Guardian/Warrior last, as it's mostly resemble a "pure" melee-tank. The class VG/PT have largely the same problems, but not regarding the range(and thats pretty big, I'd say). Putting all things considered(and both of us seems far from mentioned "all things"), the VG/PT above Guardians/Warriors, with Shadow/Assassin at the top.

Quote:
P.S. if you're going to put out a massive list of capabilities, stick to the things that *only* that class can do and how useful those capabilities actually *are* (hinthint: Phase Walk isn't *useful*, it's a gimmick) then either make note of what the class *can't* do or create similar lists for the other classes.
I understand you see it as a gimmick, Phase Walk that is. For one such as myself, who quite like to explore places - Phase Walk could be deemed godsend(ofc the "gimmick" got other uses - although I acknowledge that PW lacks in several ways). I see what you ment with "stick to the things that *only* that class can do..."(etc) - I've learnt though, that even "common" and "stuff that other have/do" could(and often do) interact in quite a few "none obvious ways". Meaning that it's the unique compound that makes the Shadow/Asassin, that might matter a lot. Thus while making a list/chart might be a good idea and show/give some really good and relevant information - It's deemed "dangerous" to mainly have focus aimed at lists/charts/statistics/etc such thinking and testing often miss out on a lot of things. ... "Blinding facts"... yes indeed.
About what I should stick to... Wait - Did you just try to tell me how I should think, how I should reply, how I should hold my own views back and my way of formulate answers/thoughts/questions ain't acceptable?
Sorry, such a "hinthint" makes little to no sense to me(actually it does, but not in the way you'd imagine, I'd imagine).

Now, my time to take a try on a little education.

Ever heard of "polarization" Kitru?
If you indeed already do understand that concept Kitru, and at the same time want to help people understand more about this game(actually, if you're intresting in helping people in any setting/situation/enviroment(irl) really). Then you might see that you could have all the worlds possible "truths" and "facts" at your disposal - and still not be of any real extra help towards other people. Of course you ain't doing that bad of a job - I'm trying to make a Point.

If you aim at helping/informing/discussing with, people - And choose to, not to learn more constructive ways of communicating - you'd fail quite often to do just that - helping/informing/etc.

1. Please try to avoid to polarize the "first" thing you do. For any of average intelligence you'd appear to have low social skill, low empathy and seem somewhat self-important. Foremost though, you'll be hindering yourself of being able to communicate the information and "facts" that you may posses, to those people.

2. You might like to, not try to put words/meanings in the mouth of other people(I'll get back to this one).

3. Don't do what I partly did in these 3 Points(lol) - meaning try to avoid negations(not that you did overly much of that, but still a important thing to point out, in my view).

4. It could be a quite good idead for you, to avoid telling people what to do, and instead suggest an alternative idea/though/answer/etc.

5. This one relates to the other points. When/if you disagree with someones answer/statement/question/thoughts/etc - You'd both earn more respect(the constructive kind) and avoid to polarize your and the other individuals communication, thoughts and feelings. And if you instead more try to think of it as you didn't understand it from that certain individuals perpsective - And thus ask the individual his/hers line of thought/reasoning(then explain your trail of thought/reasoning). As a good educator or/and therapist often do. Rambling facts and trying to "shut down" other peoples thoughts, reasoning etc(polarization)... Well thats what many politicians(no matter what "political side" they might have) seem to do - I'd say it doesn't become you Kitru, I suspect that you're "better" than that.

6. If you to a larger degree allowed yourself to go beyond many of the already existing structures(be it in game, online, or in any "irl situation"), you might surprise yourself. Not saying it's always a good idea to do it, rather trying to say it could be constructive thing, to be open to other possible(and semingly impossible) possibilites. Facts could often be great to have and be of good use, as a base - Other times/sometimes obvious facts might blurr the larger picture.

7. I'm not suggesting you should "roll over", regarding discussions etc. More rather "try to be humble about it" and when/if you'd want to educate/inform in constructive manners - you'd might like to use functional "tools" to increase your ability to help/inform/educate/socialize with, people.



Lastly... I mean no slight Kitru. Simply put, I try to tell you stuff that I help people realize on a weekly basis(ofc not talking of SWtor in mind) - And I don't think you're all oblivious to what I've written.

Take care and grats to the position as representative for the class Shadow/Assassin.

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
07.21.2013 , 02:16 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
You're stating those capabilities without really getting into what the other tanks get, not to mention that you're ignoring the fact that the OP asked about role and PvP/PvE versatility. Essentially, rather than just trying to quantify versatility of performance in a single role (and, honestly, as a tank, Guardians actually get more since they've got a lot more general combat utility; the only things that Shadows get that's actually an advantage is stealth and that's only really an advantage in PvP and while leveling) you should be looking at whether the class, as a whole, can perform in all 4 of the given pairings:

PvP + tank: All 3 can perform reasonably well, though Guardians are, de facto, the best main tanks whereas Shadows are only really node Guardians
PvE + tank: Shadows are at a substantial disadvantage because of massive spikiness problems; VGs and Guardians can both perform well, but, once again, Guardians are, de facto, the best tanks outright thanks to being borked as hell at the moment (tied with VGs for mean mitigation, best damage profile, best CD suite, best utility, all tanks have the same functional AoE and ST damage/threat, and easiest to play to boot)
PvP + DPS: VGs are pretty much worthless; Shadows are pretty good as Infiltration thanks to burst DPS; Guardians are amazing as either Vigi or Focus, with Focus being almost mindbogglingly simple for how well it performs
PvE + DPS: Once again, VGs are in a very sad state because they're lagging behind average DPS a fair deal; Shadows are in a worse state since they're lagging behind a *lot*; Guardians are in a very good place because, even if they're not explicitly top tier DPS, they've still got very good DPS that only lags behind the top tier by small amount.

If you go off of *that*, Guardians are, explicitly, the most versatile, based upon role and combat type. Guardians will excel at *whatever* you choose to do. VGs will only be effective as tanks. Shadows will only be effective as a specific subset of PvP tank (which is a *really* boring type) and PvP DPS with a single spec.

So, to answer the OP's question, it's Guardians, not Shadows or even Shadow tanks.

P.S. if you're going to put out a massive list of capabilities, stick to the things that *only* that class can do and how useful those capabilities actually *are* (hinthint: Phase Walk isn't *useful*, it's a gimmick) then either make note of what the class *can't* do or create similar lists for the other classes.
Just for your PvE Tank Section:
Guardians have some heavy disadvantages as a pve tank. They have the worst mean migation (look at dipsticks threat, look at combat logs..), As i shadow tank i need atleast about 200 hps less healing. So far i haven't seen a single parse with a pt/juggernaut who just needs 1,2 k healing on twh nim fight (same goes for 1,5k healing on dread guard fight....). Best parses from juggernaut tanks i know are 1,5k healing for twh nim fight.

Sin tanks also have the best single target dmg with powertechs (1,6 k dmg on thrasher) while Juggernauts (best parse 1,4 k) lack here aswell (I take thrasher fight here cause its the most consistent fight for tanks dealing dmg, but for styrak its the same best juggernaut parse: 1k, best sin and best powertech parse: 1,2k).

Next thing is that Juggernauts are the only tanking class which needs to be permanently in melee range to do good dmg. This is especially a heavy disadvantage for the dg nim fight (Kelsaras discharge....).

Next thing i want to know is why you think that Juggernauts have the best utility out of all 3 tanking classes. (Because of their aoe taunt Barrier?!). I don't think that can compete with the 5% healing increase, stealth rez.... from sin tanks for example.

Juggernauts have the best CDs i give you that but the difference between Juggernaut CDs and Sin Tanks CDs is not that big (50% m/r increase with a shorter cd for sin tank and a 2 sec invicibility for juggernauts) (25% dr with a 15% heal with a shorter cooldown for sin tank vs 40% dr for juggernauts) (saber reflect vs force shroud where saber reflect is better atm i think) (and Force Cloak vs nothing on jugger side there)

What do you mean with damage profile? Is that another word for spike dmg?

Overall:
Migation: Sin > Powertech > Juggernaut
Cooldowns: Juggernaut > Sin > Powertech
Utility: Sin > Juggernaut > Powertech
ST dmg: Sin = Powertech > Juggernaut
AOE dmg/threat: Probably Powertechs can deal the most dmg with death from above and all their other aoe abilitys, sin tanks have the most consistent threat with 2 low cooldown high threat aoe abilities and juggernauts can do a very good aoe with saber reflect aswell. I think here ist an overall tie.

I don't see why Juggernauts are the best tanks (maybe the are the worst but definitly not the best). Powertechs have a better migation and deal more dmg. The spike problem from sin tanks is 16 man nim exclusive (on 8 man nim i never encountered the problem so far), and i agree that this spike problem needs a fix for 16 man nim. But for every other operation,.... sith assassins are still the best tanks, with powertechs and juggs coming afterwards.

Edit: For your PvE dps part: single target dps of all 3 acs is more or less excactly on par. (Just compare the combat logs on styrak and thrasher for single target dps). None of the classes is rly lagging behind in single target dps (A dummy fight is not a real fight...). AOE-vise it is a little different, but for the encounters its not important to have 4 aoe dps.