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2.2 Tank Builds


dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
07.12.2013 , 03:13 PM | #71
so i did the calc. basically just took 17/23*mit+6/23*mitd, where mit is non-relic and mitd is with defense relic and found optimal stats for optimizing each (did not use shield floor of 860)

normal mit optimize:
d 662
s 790
a 1083

damage without proc(pre heals absorb) 1376.96
damage with proc weighted 1355.56


optimizing weighted mitigation:

522
864
1149

1377.58
1354.96

so you take 1/2 a dps more for 17/23, but you take 1/2 dps less overall...

these results are very similar (off by like 20 defense), to just assuming the KD def proc provides 155 def (ignoring the static defense)

Yngow's Avatar


Yngow
07.12.2013 , 10:53 PM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Remember, there's a difference between "easy to heal" and "least amount of healing required".

KBN and dipstik's numbers are focused upon maximizing mitigation, which means reducing incoming damage as much as possible. It's a long term view.

By stacking Shield and getting rid of Defense/Absorb, you're making it easier to heal you (by reducing spikiness, which can best be described, in this sense, as "chance of an unmitigated hit going through") but increasing the amount of damage you take and healing you require.

The reason that mean mitigation means less than it used to is because, right now, tanks aren't dying because they're taking a crapton of damage over the course of a fight or across a large number of attacks; they're dying because they're taking a *lot* of damage over a short period of time. As such, survivability isn't so much a question of taking *less* damage but taking damage in a manner that can be healed in a more steady manner.
And that is exactly why I use the proc shield relic instead of fortunate redoubt on my pt, even though redoubt is BiS, I may take more dmg but I think that when you trust your healers enough (if you don't you want to take less dmg probably) to work more on reducing spikiness than overall dmg taken. A lot of incoming dmg is no problem for a good healer but very spiky and unpredictable dmg can make even a very good healer let his tank die.

Also the reason why I have the immunity and sturdiness enhancements on my shadow, and I'm not switching until I get good 31 enhancements to replace them (which pretty much give the same mitigation but better endurance, in other words I wont be less spiky just survive a little more)

Those tank distributions and pretty much everything on theorycrafting is a guide but its never something you should follow blindly, you have to understand it and adapt it to your playstyle and situation, another very good example of that is that I always have spare relics on inventory so I can adapt to the boss I'm fighting, like dipstik pointed a few posts before dmg profiles make a difference in the stats distribution and this is even more noticeable on shadows, while its not really viable to have different gear sets for each instance or fight its always easy to swap relics.
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Septarra's Avatar


Septarra
07.14.2013 , 05:54 PM | #73
I'm sure I am missing something and maybe someone can help. But why is there such a contrast in stat distribution between this post AND KBN's post over at: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=616779

I have a Vanguard at about 2400 stat budget and there is a 200 point difference listed in Defense in each respective post:

Dipstik: 2400 Defense: 794 Shield: 978 Absorb: 628
KBN: 2400,{defense->993,shield->878,absorb->530

Is this just one of those things where some say more defense is better for less overall damage vs. Smoother Damage with more absorb? Or are KBN's values not as effective for 2.2? I'm new to all this numbers game stuff, so just curious as to why there is such a difference listed in each post, as both posts are referenced to as starting points for stat distribution.

Again, I'm probably missing something. HAHA

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.14.2013 , 08:38 PM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by Septarra View Post
But why is there such a contrast in stat distribution between this post AND KBN's post over at: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=616779
They used to be almost identical and then dipstik changed his values to account for a different incoming attack ratio. Said ratio skewed the value in favor of Shield/Absorb for all of the classes because it assumed more F/T damage than before.
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dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
07.15.2013 , 12:51 PM | #75
the damage weight numbers are actually the same. KBN used only the k/e info to get 0.79 by taking .7793/(.7793+.207). i have the extra 1% damage in i/e. both of us still get 1 (.79+.21 versus .7793+.207+.0137), but i have 3 weights and he has 2. there is no difdference in this regard since optimization does not take i/e into account, but i left it in my calcs for post armor dtps.

the difference you are seeing is due to KBN assume a contant 7.x% buff to defense due to oil slick, where i consider that to be mroe of a oh crap cd.

another difference is the way in which shield is treated. he assumes that shield is between 40 and 60%, but i do not have any requirements on shield for vanguards, since they want more than the minimum obtainable (unlike shadow and guardian for snv hm numbers... tfb hm is a different story).

hope that helps

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.15.2013 , 01:05 PM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik View Post
hope that helps
None of that would explain the differences you guys have for Shadows (2500 = 643 790 1067 v. 539 912 1049). The minimum Shield assumption you make is bypassed by the fact that the 912 is above said static minimum. There isn't any variable other than different attack ratios that would account for the difference since Shadows don't have a def/shield/abs mechanism that is accounted for differently in your systems.
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dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
07.15.2013 , 02:31 PM | #77
my absorb value is a bit different. i use .0552 for bulwark based on my simulations. he uses 0.036.

912/2500=0.3648, which is his minimum.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.15.2013 , 05:54 PM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik View Post
he uses 0.036.

912/2500=0.3648, which is his minimum.
That is *ludicrously* low for Kinetic Bulwark. Wow.
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wetslampigduex's Avatar


wetslampigduex
07.17.2013 , 08:19 AM | #79
So what I'm getting from the last part of this thread is... Dip's numbers are slightly more accurate because he factors in a third type of dmg?

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.17.2013 , 10:13 AM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by wetslampigduex View Post
So what I'm getting from the last part of this thread is... Dip's numbers are slightly more accurate because he factors in a third type of dmg?
The third damage type wouldn't affect the mitigation numbers because F/T I/E damage isn't affected by Def, Shield, or Abs.

From what I can tell, the differences, for Shadows, are caused by a different assumption of Kinetic Bulwark's contribution (KBN's is *really* low imo; even dipstik's is a bit low as I see it) and, for Vanguards, KBN averages out the contribution of Riot Gas whereas dipstik ignores it (KBN sees it as a static benefit used on CD; dipstik sees it as a tank CD in and of itself). The final difference from then is how they determine the existence of Shield rating (KBN assumes a percentage of total budget whereas dipstik assigns a given minimum equal to the Shield you would get from a full allotment of Bastion/Bulwark enhs for the given tier).
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