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Desire to See a New PT/VG tank Cooldown

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Desire to See a New PT/VG tank Cooldown

periphelion's Avatar


periphelion
07.01.2013 , 11:50 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post

Riot Gas is another potential option that has the advantage of having the perfect CD as well as having a natural extension in the talent tree (just put in a new talent linked to Riot Gas and just swap Ceramic Plating from a 2/4% talent to a straight up 4% talent). Of course, you still have to deal with the amazing uptime of Riot Gas, which means that they benefit can't really be tied to the duration itself. There are 2 possible implementations that I can think of, the first of which is activating Riot Gas provides you with a 3 second buff that increases your F/T Resistance by 100% (i.e. Riot Gas provides you with the baseline effect of Resilience). The second option would be that activating Riot Gas provides you with 1-2 charges of a buff that increases Resistance by 100%. The charges are lost when you mean any of 2 conditions: you leave the area affected by Riot Gas (this also means that it ends when the Riot Gas area fades away) or you successfully resist an F/T attack. Call the talent something like "Dispersal Gas" (i.e there's something in the gas that disperses F/T attacks, such that they fizzle harmlessly rather than hurting you). It might even be interesting if activating Riot Gas applied the same effect to *you and all allies* in the area of the Riot Gas when you activated it (though you'd likely have to limit the charges to 1 per person and reduce the effect to something like 75% F/T damage reduction rather than 100% Resistance; of course, 100% Resistance to allies as well would provide VGs with some very interesting utility and strategic value to ops that they're largely missing now)..
Why not let riot gas give a debuff on all the enemies in its area for them to have -200% accuracy on the next two attacks, of any type? Would be much simplier to implement, and have some very interesting applications in PvP - where they are also currently 3rd rate tanks.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.02.2013 , 12:18 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by periphelion View Post
Why not let riot gas give a debuff on all the enemies in its area for them to have -200% accuracy on the next two attacks, of any type? Would be much simplier to implement, and have some very interesting applications in PvP - where they are also currently 3rd rate tanks.
The problem is that you could *really* abuse this for AoE attacks, and, if it's -200% accuracy to *all* attacks, you can *really* cheese a lot of stuff. I think the better option is to just provide the VG/PT with the buff at the time of activation that acts as the "ignore one/two F/T attacks" mechanic.
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Yngow
07.10.2013 , 07:36 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Justcae View Post
Adrenals/relics are shared by all tank classes. That's not what this thread is pointing to which is an additional mechanic.



If you have a bubble on you and it absorbs any damage the combat text will show absorb even if the damage exceeds the amount the bubble would absorb. You can verify this by going back in your log and seeing the damage you actually took.

1) You had the 4 pc set bonus and had a 1/50 chance of resisting and thus took no damage.

2) You were on SM as stated above and it actually shouldn't kill you anyways. Between your bubble and whatever damage was inc vs inc heals you looked like you took little damage.

~~~

PT/VG currently has the least oh **** abilities and it shows in the new NiM modes especially. A F/T would be appreciated but any form of damage mitigation be it personal, or raid would go a long way.
No, I know how the game works and yes, I absorbed the attack completely, I don't have a log (actually I do but don't feel like seaching all my logs to find which one it is) but its just simple math, if I get a peak ~72 absorb rating, then add dmg reduction, then add the sorc bubble (which is barely needed) and you'll see how it gets up to 100%, problem is shield chance only goes up to ~50% so half chance to fully absorb and half to get you *** kicked. And all that is not counting the adrenals.

My point is, adrenals and relics can have their effectiveness even higher in a pt because of stupid high mitigation and low spikiness so they can be better cds for them than they are for, say, shadows. Not saying they don't need another cd but I really don't think that they need a very powerful cd like saber reflect. You don't need to negate completely an attack type every 2mins to do content properly in a pt (hell, you probably don't even need it on juggs).

I sincerely would like to see a cd like oil slick that gives a nice but not incredible mitigation for a reasonable time and a nice uptime so we can improve mean mitigation instead of a new powerful oh crap skill, and if it was an oh crap skill it should be very short with a long cd (something with a 5 or 10 sec uptime and 2,5 mins for example)
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MGNMTTRN's Avatar


MGNMTTRN
07.11.2013 , 04:27 PM | #24
I have no desire to see a new bursty powertech/vanguard cooldown. There already far too many "I win buttons" in this game: Resilience, Saber Reflect, Force Barrier, Guarded by the Force, Sentinel's Force Cloak. To give another class a 100% resist chance ability would certainly buff Vanguard tanks in PVP, but it's completely out of their design niche. That's the point of the Vanguard tank: it should have high passive mitigation, low on-demand mitigation.

In 2.0 Vanguards fell behind Guardians in passive mitigation (3% DR on Guardian Slash > +16% armor that Vanguards spec for, and they aren't differentiated enough in the shield/absorb department) and Guardians, for some reason, also got a hysterically good cooldown: 9k AOE threat, AND damage immunity against r/F/T, AND damage reflection toward enemies, AND it's on a 1 min cooldown.

So I identify two imbalances between Vanguards and Guardians: 1) DTPS profile for Guardians is approximately as steady as that of Vanguards 2) Guardian cooldowns are ridiculous, and the class has no weaknesses. I think the abundance of Guardian cooldowns is a Guardian design problem; it's not a Vanguard design problem.

My suggestions to remedy the Vanguardian imbalance are to 1) remove or stop giving out these "I win buttons". I understand that, despite what I want, Resilience and Saber Reflect are here to stay, and I'll deal with that. But for god's sake, don't give another 100% resist ability to a tank class. 2) buff Vanguard armor/shield/absorb, nerf Guardian armor at least. Ensure Vanguards are the steady DTPS class.

Yngow's Avatar


Yngow
07.12.2013 , 11:21 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by MGNMTTRN View Post
I have no desire to see a new bursty powertech/vanguard cooldown. There already far too many "I win buttons" in this game: Resilience, Saber Reflect, Force Barrier, Guarded by the Force, Sentinel's Force Cloak. To give another class a 100% resist chance ability would certainly buff Vanguard tanks in PVP, but it's completely out of their design niche. That's the point of the Vanguard tank: it should have high passive mitigation, low on-demand mitigation.

In 2.0 Vanguards fell behind Guardians in passive mitigation (3% DR on Guardian Slash > +16% armor that Vanguards spec for, and they aren't differentiated enough in the shield/absorb department) and Guardians, for some reason, also got a hysterically good cooldown: 9k AOE threat, AND damage immunity against r/F/T, AND damage reflection toward enemies, AND it's on a 1 min cooldown.

So I identify two imbalances between Vanguards and Guardians: 1) DTPS profile for Guardians is approximately as steady as that of Vanguards 2) Guardian cooldowns are ridiculous, and the class has no weaknesses. I think the abundance of Guardian cooldowns is a Guardian design problem; it's not a Vanguard design problem.

My suggestions to remedy the Vanguardian imbalance are to 1) remove or stop giving out these "I win buttons". I understand that, despite what I want, Resilience and Saber Reflect are here to stay, and I'll deal with that. But for god's sake, don't give another 100% resist ability to a tank class. 2) buff Vanguard armor/shield/absorb, nerf Guardian armor at least. Ensure Vanguards are the steady DTPS class.
^Exactly my thoughts, I mean, I really think some classes should have those awesome cds but give to classes who needs it, shadows REALLY need it and bioware are screwing resilience a lot, the way I see shadows have a very low cd on resilience, so low that you can have it on every spiky situation in a boss fight, problem is from what kitru said to me the other day they are making some force/tech attacks become melee/ranged (huge grenade in titan 6 and scream on TFB HM) and this makes resilience worthless while at the same time does nothing for saber reflect, they can still reflect ranged so they become the only class that can negate several attacks when they actually don't need to do it since they have very good mitigation and other very good cds.

If you want juggs to be a class with awesome cds make their mean mitigation worse so you force them to actually need it, and if you want shadows to be spiky and very cd relying make their cds very good, whats happening right now is one class getting all the candies, another being kicked in the nuts over and over and a third class watching it all from the distance just sitting there, wanting more candies but not doing anything because they don't want to be kicked in the nuts
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mastirkal's Avatar


mastirkal
07.14.2013 , 12:47 PM | #26
Honestly, haven't seen a post, but giving them the ability to have 100% sheild chance for 12-15 seconds would make them pretty epic. They wouldn't change the status of being the smooth damage intakers, but with that kind of buff even more so for a few seconds on a 2 minute cool down. They are the shield tech spec for a reason. Just call it "overpowered/overcharged shield".

This is of course if they also fix sin tanks damage profile we might see pre 2.0 balance again.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.14.2013 , 01:16 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by mastirkal View Post
Honestly, haven't seen a post, but giving them the ability to have 100% sheild chance for 12-15 seconds would make them pretty epic.
I can see a lot of problems with this, especially considering what can be done with Energy Blast. Reactive shield is already pretty amazing, but a long term guaranteed shield like that would be absolutely *nuts*.

Something else to consider is that Vanguards are the absolute weakest tanks against I/E damage: VGs only pack 19% I/E DR and 2% resist chance with only Reactive Shield applying to the damage. Guardians pack 24% I/E DR and 5% resist chance with *all* of their CDs working against I/E damage, and Shadows pack 23% I/E DR and 2% resist chance with 2 CDs that are effective against it. The difference isn't *massive*, but, considering that the only mitigation mechanisms that work against F/T I/E damage are DR and CDs, it's a reasonably big difference.

Honestly, I'd be perfectly happen with a talent linked to Riot Gas that provides the VG tank with 50% F/T damage reduction (which is multiplicative, not additive) for 5 seconds following Riot Gas's use. It's essentially a worse version of Resilience tied to an existing CD which is already used actively by VGs. It wouldn't really complicate things but would provide the burst F/T mitigation utility that the other tanks get.
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mastirkal's Avatar


mastirkal
07.14.2013 , 01:52 PM | #28
Excuse my ignorance as I don't ever play pub side. What is the equivilant to riot gas?

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Kitru
07.14.2013 , 01:58 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by mastirkal View Post
Excuse my ignorance as I don't ever play pub side. What is the equivilant to riot gas?
Oil Slick.
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Yngow
07.14.2013 , 02:36 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Honestly, I'd be perfectly happen with a talent linked to Riot Gas that provides the VG tank with 50% F/T damage reduction (which is multiplicative, not additive) for 5 seconds following Riot Gas's use. It's essentially a worse version of Resilience tied to an existing CD which is already used actively by VGs. It wouldn't really complicate things but would provide the burst F/T mitigation utility that the other tanks get.
That would be good, specially because it gives 50% and not full resistance, but I'd like to see this happening in a different ability instead of riot gas/oil slick because you can use those 2 effects on very different situations, maybe hold the line/hydraulic or even create an additional ability
Empire/Republic of TAW - Prophecy of the Five
Illyan - Powertech ; Lellian - Jedi Sentinel ; Le'lian - Scoundrel ; L'aayla - Sith Juggernaut ; Harrden - Commando ; Lellyana - Sith Sorcerer ; Viagro - Sniper ; Lelsara - Jedi Shadow