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Tanking Spreadsheet for all Tanks, Includes relic data

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Tanking Spreadsheet for all Tanks, Includes relic data

Redklaw's Avatar


Redklaw
07.12.2013 , 08:00 PM | #1
https://skydrive.live.com/redir?page...BDy3qXaWXFs6Vs

I just used an version of my PT/VG spreadsheet to create a spreadsheet that covers all 3 tank classes. Juggernaut is functional and should be working, Assassin is a bit of a shot in the dark. Vanguard should be solid at this point.

To change between the tanks, click on the tabs located at the bottom of the spreadsheet.

This spreadsheet includes time weighted calculations for relic uses and their effect on mean mitigation.

I'm think that my calculations for warrior tanks are correct, but I'm sure someone will point out something I'm missing.

The biggest concern I have with the current build is how to account for kinetic ward and the effect on stack decrease. I've guesstimated 100% up-time for KW and about 6% mean addition from bulwark, this is probably not accurate.

Please poke around and let me know if there is anything I'm missing in there.

Thanks Kitru, Dipstik, Metallic, and Fire-breath for poking at my errors in the earlier vanguard version.

-Redklaw

7/28 2013 Update: Now includes adjustable damage types / accuracy levels!
Red'klaw - Vanguard Blueklaw - GuardianRedklaw - PowertechSaies - JuggernautRedklavv - Assassin
Tank All the Things
Phobos - Harbinger

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.12.2013 , 10:16 PM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Redklaw View Post
The biggest concern I have with the current build is how to account for kinetic ward and the effect on stack decrease. I've guesstimated 100% up-time for KW and about 6% mean addition from bulwark, this is probably not accurate.
That's actually pretty much on point. In fact, those are the very numbers that *I* use when calculating mean mitigation.
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.12.2013 , 10:35 PM | #3
I'm currently trying to suss out exactly what the numbers you're using *mean*. When you say "Base" Defense, are you referring to the 5% that VGs and Guardians get for free? Because you gave Shadows 11% (they have a baseline 10% Defense chance so, under that assumption, it's 1% higher than it should be). Then, when you get to the "Skills" section, all you put in is the 5% that I'm *assuming* you used for the accuracy debuff but that's ignoring the 6% additional Defense chance that Shadows get from talents (4% from DBSD and 2% from Shadowsight). At best, your categories make no sense when using the same assumptions as the other two classes and, on top of that, are short 5%.

Furthermore, you're already assuming 4 pc set bonus (which is why VGs get a skill contribution to Defense of 6% instead of 4%). Kinetic Ward provides 15% by default but 20% with the 2 piece set bonus. The 4 piece is 2% damage reduction (which means you need to bump up the DR contribution to 4% since the 2% you're showing only accounts for the 2% talent) though you *did* include it in the I/E calculation so I'm not sure what exactly you're doing there.

It's pretty obvious you don't have a Shadow (so much that you got so very, very wrong) so I'll just lay out the info for you here:

Armor: If you're talking about using 31s, a Shadow will be packing 6447.8 armor. In full NiM gear, you'll be bumped up to 6680. 7500 is a *massive* overestimation.

Damage Reduction (K/E): stance 0 (all CT does is multiply armor rating), skills 4 (2% Jedi Resistance, 2% set bonus)
Damage Reduction (I/E): stance 0 (same as before), skills 13 (2% Jedi Resistance, 2% set bonus, 9% Technique Mastery)

Defense: base 10, skills 11 (acc debuff, 4% DBSD, 2% Shadowsight)
Shield: base 5, stance 15, skills 20 (KW 15+5%)
Absorb: base 20, skills 10 (4% Impact Control, 6% Kinetic Bulwark)
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Kitru
07.12.2013 , 10:49 PM | #4
Moving on to Guardians...

You got a lot wrong here as well. I'll just move on to the correct values rather than elaborating on how and what was done wrong.

Armor rating: 9915 armor rating in full UW; 10270 in full Kell

Damage Reduction (K/E): stance 5, skills 3 (3% Guardian Slash)
Damage Reduction (I/E): stance 5, skills 8 (3% Guardian Slash, 5% Inner Peace)

Defense: base 5, skills 13 (3% SSM, 5% Blade Barricade, 5% acc debuff)
Shield: base 5, skills 19 (15% stance, 4% Shield Mastery), abilities 0
Absorb: base 20, skills 0, abilities 0
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leto_cleon's Avatar


leto_cleon
07.13.2013 , 01:50 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Moving on to Guardians...

Armor rating: 9915 armor rating in full UW;
Hmm... I'm guessing your calculation is a little off. My Guardian in full Guardian Armoring 31s has 10000 Armour Rating.

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Kitru
07.13.2013 , 02:48 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by leto_cleon View Post
Hmm... I'm guessing your calculation is a little off. My Guardian in full Guardian Armoring 31s has 10000 Armour Rating.
Was going off of the raw armor ratings from the gear multiplied by the listed values (1.6 + .15). The armor ratings are wonky with the multiplication (the 60% is actually slightly more, but I'm not sure how much). It's not really a flat value and is more closely related to the other ratings, so it's not a *major* deal.
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Redklaw's Avatar


Redklaw
07.13.2013 , 04:10 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I'm currently trying to suss out exactly what the numbers you're using *mean*. When you say "Base" Defense, are you referring to the 5% that VGs and Guardians get for free? Because you gave Shadows 11% (they have a baseline 10% Defense chance so, under that assumption, it's 1% higher than it should be). Then, when you get to the "Skills" section, all you put in is the 5% that I'm *assuming* you used for the accuracy debuff but that's ignoring the 6% additional Defense chance that Shadows get from talents (4% from DBSD and 2% from Shadowsight). At best, your categories make no sense when using the same assumptions as the other two classes and, on top of that, are short 5%.

Furthermore, you're already assuming 4 pc set bonus (which is why VGs get a skill contribution to Defense of 6% instead of 4%). Kinetic Ward provides 15% by default but 20% with the 2 piece set bonus. The 4 piece is 2% damage reduction (which means you need to bump up the DR contribution to 4% since the 2% you're showing only accounts for the 2% talent) though you *did* include it in the I/E calculation so I'm not sure what exactly you're doing there.

It's pretty obvious you don't have a Shadow (so much that you got so very, very wrong) so I'll just lay out the info for you here:

Armor: If you're talking about using 31s, a Shadow will be packing 6447.8 armor. In full NiM gear, you'll be bumped up to 6680. 7500 is a *massive* overestimation.

Damage Reduction (K/E): stance 0 (all CT does is multiply armor rating), skills 4 (2% Jedi Resistance, 2% set bonus)
Damage Reduction (I/E): stance 0 (same as before), skills 13 (2% Jedi Resistance, 2% set bonus, 9% Technique Mastery)

Defense: base 10, skills 11 (acc debuff, 4% DBSD, 2% Shadowsight)
Shield: base 5, stance 15, skills 20 (KW 15+5%)
Absorb: base 20, skills 10 (4% Impact Control, 6% Kinetic Bulwark)
For the armor rating stuff (and pretty much everything else in a green box, these are variable stats that are intended to be matched to the stat sheet by the user to match the displayed value on the character sheet. The values I left in those spots are arbitrary, since they will change once someone punches in their own numbers. Taking the value of armor displayed on the character sheet will match the amount of armor rating being applied toward damage reduction, after all skills are applied. This isn't clearly explained in the sheet for Juggernauts and Assassins, as I was more concerned about matching the DSA formula's to character sheets. I'll be updating this soon for clarity.

I'll be re-organizing the stat sheet also to make it more clear where the stats are derived from.

Accuracy debuffs are included as a function of the damage calculation, since they occur in a way that is separate but similar to defense chance rolls, I'm using the formula's from dipstik's feedback which includes this as a factor that is mathematically related to but distinct from the defense chance roll; this is also done to account for the accuracy debuff from force sweep / cyclone slash and flame burst / flame sweep for the other two classes. The 4 piece set bonus is included in the total defense values, the 5% not being included in the defense chance threw you off a bit I think.

15% on Kinetic Ward was a dumb mistake, fixing that.

I haven't played my Assassin since well before 2.0 came out, it was stuck on a server I no longer play on and I was only recently able to move it; so I'm essentially useless when it comes to Sins at the moment. I haven't gotten the sin up to 55 just yet (as I HATE leveling), so I figured out the skill / buff / stance addends from a friends alt (who has no set bonus gear).

There are a lot of aesthetics that are really ugly on this spreadsheet at the moment, namely the stance / buffs / ability things which were jury rigged to work and don't always represent actual sources of the addends. That's the reason that everything, when added, matched up except defense (where you included something that I use as part of the calculation) and shield chance (where I messed up). I'm going to clean it up a lot when I work in the skill menu's up at the top and have it add values based on selections, but I have reorganized it so that it is more clearly understood.

Thanks a bunch for the feedback, it's been very useful!
Red'klaw - Vanguard Blueklaw - GuardianRedklaw - PowertechSaies - JuggernautRedklavv - Assassin
Tank All the Things
Phobos - Harbinger

MGNMTTRN's Avatar


MGNMTTRN
07.13.2013 , 12:38 PM | #8
I get the feeling that the spreadsheet's primary goal is to be similar to the work of KBN, but will encompass relic data as well. To be honest I never was much interested in adding relics into my mean mitigation, I considered them as separate effects that can either reduce my spikiness or reduce my DTPS.

If the spreadsheet were differentiated from KBN's lookup table by allowing specification of certain parameters, I would probably use it. Here are some parameters I'd like to be able to specify:
  • uptime on the off-GCD effects of the various tanks; I can't speak about Guardians, but for Vanguards and Shadows the effects of kinetic ward and energy blast are highly fight-dependent and skill-dependent. +20 shield, +6 abs at 100% uptime is an enormously rosy estimation for a player with little skill
  • more control over specification of what is being minimized. For example there was a vicious thread in the Shadow forums that I think got deleted, where people were arguing about what the F/T vs M/R damage balance is in TFB NIM. I'd like to be able to specify that % balance between the two attack types. I'd also like to be able to minimize something other than E[dam] = sum p(dam_i)*dam_i; I want to be able to minimize for any sum p(dam_i)*dam_i^r, where r > 1
  • if you wanted to add even more support for ability to specify boss damage, it would also be nice to be able to specify p(attack_i occurs), the damage that attack_i does, number of ticks, accuracy, and its [M vs F, K vs I] breakdown
  • a gradient or something that shows what happens when I transition from current [D,S,A] to {[D+1, S, A], [D,S+1, A], and [D, S, A+1]} so I can know what augment to add
To be honest probably only the last request would even be 1) a reasonable, doable change 2) something that's useful to the typical player 3) not going to bloat the complexity of the spreadsheet further. And its utility is already provided in the section where you can specify changes to your stats, I just want to be able to see both mean mitigations at the same time because I'm lazy.

Redklaw's Avatar


Redklaw
07.13.2013 , 04:49 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by MGNMTTRN View Post
I get the feeling that the spreadsheet's primary goal is to be similar to the work of KBN, but will encompass relic data as well. To be honest I never was much interested in adding relics into my mean mitigation, I considered them as separate effects that can either reduce my spikiness or reduce my DTPS.

If the spreadsheet were differentiated from KBN's lookup table by allowing specification of certain parameters, I would probably use it. Here are some parameters I'd like to be able to specify:
  • uptime on the off-GCD effects of the various tanks; I can't speak about Guardians, but for Vanguards and Shadows the effects of kinetic ward and energy blast are highly fight-dependent and skill-dependent. +20 shield, +6 abs at 100% uptime is an enormously rosy estimation for a player with little skill
  • more control over specification of what is being minimized. For example there was a vicious thread in the Shadow forums that I think got deleted, where people were arguing about what the F/T vs M/R damage balance is in TFB NIM. I'd like to be able to specify that % balance between the two attack types. I'd also like to be able to minimize something other than E[dam] = sum p(dam_i)*dam_i; I want to be able to minimize for any sum p(dam_i)*dam_i^r, where r > 1
  • if you wanted to add even more support for ability to specify boss damage, it would also be nice to be able to specify p(attack_i occurs), the damage that attack_i does, number of ticks, accuracy, and its [M vs F, K vs I] breakdown
  • a gradient or something that shows what happens when I transition from current [D,S,A] to {[D+1, S, A], [D,S+1, A], and [D, S, A+1]} so I can know what augment to add
To be honest probably only the last request would even be 1) a reasonable, doable change 2) something that's useful to the typical player 3) not going to bloat the complexity of the spreadsheet further. And its utility is already provided in the section where you can specify changes to your stats, I just want to be able to see both mean mitigations at the same time because I'm lazy.


1. Up-times are based off of values given by Kitru, yourself, others, and testing. I can adjust this so that the user can input their own uptimes though, which is not so hard to do. I'll see what I can do to add it in. Right now I'm concerned about getting a correct working base though.

2&3. Can also be be done, but will require more effort. They will probably be added in later, as this is something I've considered adding for a while now.

4. Was already done before my last post. Check the spreadsheet again, the change in value is located under the new MM values in the stat playground section. I may be misunderstanding what you mean in this point however...

Also, my primary use of this spreadsheet is to determine stat weighing in as a definite value. For instance, my stats (the current ones on the vanguard page) are not optimal, but getting to optimal only nets a increase of about .04% mean mitigation at a cost of about 660k credits (6 augments changed at 100k per augment and 10k per removal of existing). An increase of 30 armor is a increase of .35% mean mitigation as a comparison of value.
Red'klaw - Vanguard Blueklaw - GuardianRedklaw - PowertechSaies - JuggernautRedklavv - Assassin
Tank All the Things
Phobos - Harbinger

Yngow's Avatar


Yngow
07.13.2013 , 11:41 PM | #10
My favorite use for this kind of spreadsheet/tools is figuring out the best combination for a specific fight, so you get the dps of the boss, dmg type ratios for f/t k/e and the dmg of the big hits. Then I just look into some things like best relic combination, how much health he'll take if I get an unmitigated big hit (good for setting endurance numbers and figuring which cds are best used and when) and also raid composition.

pretty much for stat balancing in general I think we have many tools available already
Empire/Republic of TAW - Prophecy of the Five
Illyan - Powertech ; Lellian - Jedi Sentinel ; Le'lian - Scoundrel ; L'aayla - Sith Juggernaut ; Harrden - Commando ; Lellyana - Sith Sorcerer ; Viagro - Sniper ; Lelsara - Jedi Shadow