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Respec is ruining ranked and non-ranked warzones.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Respec is ruining ranked and non-ranked warzones.

ObiJuanShenobi's Avatar


ObiJuanShenobi
07.12.2013 , 05:56 PM | #11


That's the face I make whenever someone makes the infamous "...is ruining WZ's" thread.

But on topic, yes, it shouldn't be allowed once you enter the WZ. Also, we need dual spec in the game and for actual respeccing to cost you big credits
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ManiacDavis's Avatar


ManiacDavis
07.12.2013 , 06:42 PM | #12
I am on the fence with field respec and it for this reason. PvP should ALWAYS revolve around skill and nothing else. The game mechanics should allow the player with the best grasp of the game to always win in engagements against a less skilled player. Any addition or subtraction of game mechanics that tightens the gap between skilled players and non-skilled players does not serve the best interest of pvp.

SKILL SHOULD ALWAYS BE SUPREME
RnG should be nowhere near pvp. For example: Allow skilled players to dictate when their procs occur.
Gear should be a minimal factor in determining who wins an engagement. We all love our carrots, just don't make them a huge part of our diet because I like cake more (the knowledge that I won due to sheer skill and manly prowess).

With that being said, field respec allows a skillful player with a grasp of multiple specs to bring more utility to their team. Field respec rewards players for challenging themselves with multiple specs and not pigeon holing themselves into one spec. Having a complete mid-maxed tank and dps gear should be rewarded because that player has spent countless hours grinding for it. However, this gear should never be a replacement for skill. A skilled player should be able to beat a non-skilled/geared player.

The main arguments I hear about why field respec should be discontinued is "games are too stalematey" and "it gives people too much of an advantage."

When people talk about games being too stalematey, they usually mean the other team is all healers/tanks and it is impossible to kill them, therefore it is impossible to complete an objective.

Games are too Stalematey

This is a result of bad map design and bad combat design. I firmly believe that Novare Coast has the best capture mechanic in the game at the moment as opposed to Voidstar and Civil War. Novare allows multiple teammates to capture the point and every tick/second they get is rewarded. If the voidstar doors were changed to this mechanic, I guarantee more people would attempt to cap the door in ranked situations because the risk of losing 7.99 seconds of dps/heals is way lower when every second you put on the door is rewarded. Additionally, if Civil war used the same mechanic as Novare, there is higher probability that the middle node will be capped or the ever illusive side nodes will be capped. This spreads out the conflict and makes for a more engaging map.

We have all seen the 30 min Novare games where Don't Panic and MvP battle it out at Novare's mid node. This is the exception and does not occur in 99% of the games.

Bad Game Mechanics

A good healer and tank are unbeatable. Especially scoundrel healers who can put out 10k heals to there team while stunned simply due to slow-release medpack. If you give skilled players more abilities to counter these features, the game would be less stalematey. For example, if the commando's cleanse could be used as a purge (debuff all heals over time on an enemy target) it would allow coordinated teams another skill to break this unstoppable paradigm.

Another possibility is to have electro net not only prevent movement abilities/stealth but also prevent the target from becoming guarded. You still need to rely on your team to burn the target down by focusing dps/interrupting/cc'ing healers, which is no easy task against good teams. This again would break the stalematey aspects of warzones because the tank/heal paradigm can be broken via a hard counter. I feel these changes would be balanced because the Scoundrel can cast slow-release instantly for little energy and electro net has a 1 minute 30 second cooldown. I focus on the commando because that is the class I play the most but I am sure similar things could be proposed for sage, etc.

It is for these reasons that I think removing field respec is improper and will not solve the problems mentioned. Removing field respec lowers the gap between skilled players and un-skilled players which should not be desired in PvP. There are better avenues that get at the heart of why games are so stalematey. Removing field respec may reduce stalematey games, but this is at a cost of lowering the skill gap. There are other options that could be employed to make warzones more dynamic.

Do I think bioware will do any of this, definitely not, but here is my two cents.

The End,

GG IN DA LIGHT
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Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
07.12.2013 , 07:04 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by akabane_k View Post
How?
I would ask you provide a detailed strategy to take a node in civil war when fighting 4 skilled tanks and healers.
Depends largely on class composition but:

If you've got a team of healers and tanks, they're lacking dps. Your team no longer needs to be a balance of 2 heals, 2 tanks, 4 dps. By using legacy respec yourself, you can switch to a team of heavy dps.

Secondly, you need to divide healers from tanks and burn them. There are multiple classes with mechanics that move players. A coordinated pull/push and focus fire can tear apart the heal+tank combo. Without a tank, a healer is weakened and without a healer a tank is weakened. Add class abilities that are designed to prevent escapes/cc

Further strategies involve movement and CC, etc, etc...

I'm not saying it's easy, just that it's possible. Even reasonably possible.

What I do agree, is that with the f2p model giving subscribers free respec's, the risk/cost of legacy respec is too low. They should probably look into reinstating some kind of cost to respec's.
Player Responsibility: Players have the responsibility to strive for improvement before asking for changes.
Player Accountability: Insufficient credits, lack of gear, poor reputation, and inability to compete is the price of laziness, incompetence, and/or unwillingness.

ManiacDavis's Avatar


ManiacDavis
07.12.2013 , 07:16 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Secondly, you need to divide healers from tanks and burn them. There are multiple classes with mechanics that move players. A coordinated pull/push and focus fire can tear apart the heal+tank combo. Without a tank, a healer is weakened and without a healer a tank is weakened. Add class abilities that are designed to prevent escapes/cc.
This is so unlikely in the current state of play it is practically impossible. Two classes have a pull... vanguard which has been nerfed to the ground and shadow which is almost always node guarding. Even if you push him back, then pull him, he will force leap back to the melee dps on the healer or guardian leap.
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foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
07.12.2013 , 07:16 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by ManiacDavis View Post
Bad Game Mechanics

A good healer and tank are unbeatable. Especially scoundrel healers who can put out 10k heals to there team while stunned simply due to slow-release medpack. If you give skilled players more abilities to counter these features, the game would be less stalematey. For example, if the commando's cleanse could be used as a purge (debuff all heals over time on an enemy target) it would allow coordinated teams another skill to break this unstoppable paradigm.

Another possibility is to have electro net not only prevent movement abilities/stealth but also prevent the target from becoming guarded. You still need to rely on your team to burn the target down by focusing dps/interrupting/cc'ing healers, which is no easy task against good teams. This again would break the stalematey aspects of warzones because the tank/heal paradigm can be broken via a hard counter. I feel these changes would be balanced because the Scoundrel can cast slow-release instantly for little energy and electro net has a 1 minute 30 second cooldown. I focus on the commando because that is the class I play the most but I am sure similar things could be proposed for sage, etc.

It is for these reasons that I think removing field respec is improper and will not solve the problems mentioned. Removing field respec lowers the gap between skilled players and un-skilled players which should not be desired in PvP. There are better avenues that get at the heart of why games are so stalematey. Removing field respec may reduce stalematey games, but this is at a cost of lowering the skill gap. There are other options that could be employed to make warzones more dynamic.

Do I think bioware will do any of this, definitely not, but here is my two cents.

The End,

GG IN DA LIGHT
wow! I really like your suggestions for hard counters to tank/heal combos. they're reasonable without being game breaking. giving electro net more utility w/o reducing the cd (thus abusing it) looks like a great incentive to include mando healers/dps into rated even though their throughput ceiling isn't as high as other dps/heal ACs.

something I don't like about NC, though, is that you can't see ppl capping. not an issue in rated, but annoying as hell in regs when only 1 or 2 of the 8 ppl in the ops have the presence of mind to try to interrupt in the first place. (camera issue more than corner capping - when you have to melee inside the hut and all the explosions going off drown out the capping noise, camera sucks in there with you)

as for respeccing, it's kind of a toss-up. I would rather you put your ops together as a compromise or gamble with a comp for a specific map.

it's kind of a push as far as class access. I would like to get rid of it because it gives teams more of a reason to carry juggs, ops and sages, the first two already being dominate in one or two roles, the latter being a nice healing compliment to any heal combo.

on the other hand, it also gives them a reason to carry mandos, which already suffer from pre 2.0 prejudice as well as having lower throughput (although perfectly viable as a 2nd ranged unit).

the "pure dps" classes aren't affected either way. maras and snipers are always in demand and always will be, with or without respeccing...until some class balance event drops on them.
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DarthRaika's Avatar


DarthRaika
07.12.2013 , 07:29 PM | #16
Ya having played mmos for years there are some games where healing/tanking in pvp does make for boring matches. SWTOR is a game where this can occur very easily because of both how strong these 2 areas are and how easy to play pvp tanks are. This happens in ranked fairly often but it isn't every match.

Now I am not saying they are easier than other classes as all classes in swtor are pretty easy, however pvp tanks in this game are easier to play than in many other mmos. In many mmos players always complain that tanks are worthless in pvp, however the ones who are skilled are always great additions to their team.

It would be very hard to fix this though and idk how BW can do it without a major change and/or messing up other aspects of pvp.

One thing I would love to see in a game though are healers who, in pvp only, give stacking debuffs to their teammates every time they heal them. These debuffs would quickly and strongly affect heals from other players and gradually hurt healing from the healer building the stacks (so if there is only one healer then this doesn't kick in very much).

This would stop the matches where no one ever dies.

The downside to this would be that healers might feel useless once the debuffs kick in and that is why I have thought of the 2nd aspect of this class that would make it a lot of fun. Each debuff stack would increase the dmg of their damaging abilities and even unlock a nice ability that could only be used with high stacks. This could be a large burst ability or maybe a massive aoe debuff for the other team.

That is something I have always wanted and I am surprised no one has ever done it. It would remove the issue that is being complained about in this thread.

jibboo's Avatar


jibboo
07.12.2013 , 08:14 PM | #17
I agree that respec within warzones should not be allowed.
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Raansu's Avatar


Raansu
07.12.2013 , 09:20 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Depends largely on class composition but:

If you've got a team of healers and tanks, they're lacking dps. Your team no longer needs to be a balance of 2 heals, 2 tanks, 4 dps. By using legacy respec yourself, you can switch to a team of heavy dps.

Secondly, you need to divide healers from tanks and burn them. There are multiple classes with mechanics that move players. A coordinated pull/push and focus fire can tear apart the heal+tank combo. Without a tank, a healer is weakened and without a healer a tank is weakened. Add class abilities that are designed to prevent escapes/cc

Further strategies involve movement and CC, etc, etc...

I'm not saying it's easy, just that it's possible. Even reasonably possible.

What I do agree, is that with the f2p model giving subscribers free respec's, the risk/cost of legacy respec is too low. They should probably look into reinstating some kind of cost to respec's.
No, there is nothing reasonably possible about it. There are so many scenarios that can be countered that a simple pull or even double pull would do nothing to resolve. A jugg can leap or intercede, a PT can yank, oil slick then leap to the others, an assassin can pull shroud, stealth out, then you have the healers where an op can dodge,stealth out, a healer can bubble even when stunned, and even as weak as the merc is they still can do hydraulic override and their shields give immunity to interrupts so pull/stun white bar doesn't mean **** to them.

Then you have to account for taunts, plus the other one or two healers in a game were hps is higher than dps right now on top of random procs on relics making burst unreliable for some classes on top of the crit nerf...the list goes on and on and on. There really is no ideal way to handle the current tank/heal combo which is why games have so many stalemates lately.

As for respec, no I feel it should stay free for subscribers until they had a proper dual spec into the game. What I will say is that I feel respec should only be allowed before the game starts because they are different enough that certain specs do fair better than others (carnage in huttball and rage in voidstar for example). Once the warzone has started it should be disabled preventing any respecs mid match or during the second round on voidstar. Teams will have to be more conscience with their comp and not just go "lol lets all go tank/heal in round 2 on voidstar" etc...

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
07.12.2013 , 11:04 PM | #19
Meh.

Kind of what I expected. No matter what strategy suggested or presented, someone will bring in 100+ other factors to why that won't work (leaving out the 100+ counters to that counter that's a counter of a counter etc...)

I could mention that a guardian interceding to the healer pulled away from the node is... off the node!

Or that a pull+stun (or maybe electro-net?) and some FF by 2-3 dps leaves a healer out of a tanks guard, taunts, and unable to use an escape? Rinse and repeat, etc... Again, not saying it's easy, but counters exist, there are multiple strategies if everyone is using tools to their full extent...

But I know I'd be wasting my time.
Player Responsibility: Players have the responsibility to strive for improvement before asking for changes.
Player Accountability: Insufficient credits, lack of gear, poor reputation, and inability to compete is the price of laziness, incompetence, and/or unwillingness.

cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
07.13.2013 , 01:30 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Meh.

Kind of what I expected. No matter what strategy suggested or presented, someone will bring in 100+ other factors to why that won't work (leaving out the 100+ counters to that counter that's a counter of a counter etc...)

I could mention that a guardian interceding to the healer pulled away from the node is... off the node!

Or that a pull+stun (or maybe electro-net?) and some FF by 2-3 dps leaves a healer out of a tanks guard, taunts, and unable to use an escape? Rinse and repeat, etc... Again, not saying it's easy, but counters exist, there are multiple strategies if everyone is using tools to their full extent...

But I know I'd be wasting my time.
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