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This is an easy flashpoint!/We outleveled it!


Revenaught's Avatar


Revenaught
07.11.2013 , 02:57 PM | #51
I ran into a prime example of this behavior this morning. God mode DPS takes off and never slows down. Hits the biggest enemy before anyone else gets there and downs it and promptly runs on to the next encounter leaving me, the healer with all the agro and taking damage, and the much lower level dps and tank to drop all the rest. When I pause a second to tell him to let the tank tank I get asked "Y?".
When I tell him he's leaving a mess that everyone else has to clean up he get's all haughty and tells me that as he has 30+ some odd thousand health I should vastly prefer healing him over the lvl 50 tank with 14K health. I tell him no I'd prefer to heal the tank now let him do his job or I'm out of here.
His reply "go ahead my companion heals better than you." So I say fine and drop cause I don't have to put up with that crap.

Looking back on it the only regret I have is not initiating a vote kick on him first.

It's like this, when a DPS insists on filling the tank roll you simply don't have the tools to do the job properly. Sure you are leveled and geared so that no one opponent is going to give you grief but you have nothing to effectively manage agro. Instead of making the run quicker and easier on everyone else you are making it a pain in everyone's fourth point of contact.
If you really want he run to proceed quicker and easier carry out your role in the group properly. With your levels and gear you can blow through the weaker enemies and work your way up the chain in no time. The weak mobs will die before they can jump the healer. Your healer can focus on keeping everyone else alive instead of himself. And the tank is performing the role he queued up for. I guarantee you that if you focus on doing your job properly the FP will end far quicker than when you make a muck of everything cause you think your God's gift to FPs.
Mal - Define interesting.

Wash - Oh God. Oh God. We're all gonna die?

Mal - This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence. So we may experience some slight, turbulence...and then explode.

DarthBloodloss's Avatar


DarthBloodloss
07.12.2013 , 03:21 AM | #52
The only way I see this as a problem is if, like the OP said, the DPS is aggro'ing additional mobs that the healer will pull aggro from and die. Maybe those mobs are too spread out and the tank can't taunt them all as they normally would.

If the DPS is killing mobs in a non-standard order, and/or pulling too many groups for the other members to survive....then that's a problem.

If the DPS is simply pulling the first mob in every group, and taking agro and killing everything but not causing any deaths, you should be lucky to have them in the group. If they tank better than the tank, then the group needs to recognize that and adjust. Not complain about it. (If I heal better than the healer, are you going to ask me to stop throwing out off-heals?)

Lowbie flashpoints are like lowbie warzones. Don't ever expect proper tactics from random people, learn what your job is and practice doing it, and get to 55 asap so you can play for real.
Bloodloss Mercenary
DESTROYER OF WORLDS || KEEPER OF SOULS

Nkya's Avatar


Nkya
07.12.2013 , 04:46 AM | #53
The healer would need the heal the DPS who's starting the fight, then himself since the first heal would have turned to him all the aggro from the pack, then the tank trying to untangle the mess. The tank AOE don't work as good since the mobs are moving, maybe they're even spread, one to the trigger happy DPS, some on the healer and the ranged ones remaining in place.

The first adjustment I'll have in mind when this behaviour repeats is votekick.

msfyoung's Avatar


msfyoung
07.12.2013 , 04:58 AM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by Nkya View Post
The healer would need the heal the DPS who's starting the fight, then himself since the first heal would have turned to him all the aggro from the pack, then the tank trying to untangle the mess. The tank AOE don't work as good since the mobs are moving, maybe they're even spread, one to the trigger happy DPS, some on the healer and the ranged ones remaining in place.

The first adjustment I'll have in mind when this behaviour repeats is votekick.
Here's how my 50 fps go (sage healer)

I'm usually in front thanks to force speed, so I drop a quake on the mobs. My bubble absorbs most damage, self heal takes care of the rest. DPS and tank then catch up - tank taunts the biggest mob, dps and I kill everything else. Generally they require nothing more than a rejuv here or there - at most one trance.

If there's at least one other 69+ geared person, this makes the run extremely fast, and nobody ever comes close to dying. Why would you not like this :?

Nkya's Avatar


Nkya
07.12.2013 , 05:47 AM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by msfyoung View Post
Here's how my 50 fps go (sage healer)

I'm usually in front thanks to force speed, so I drop a quake on the mobs. My bubble absorbs most damage, self heal takes care of the rest. DPS and tank then catch up - tank taunts the biggest mob, dps and I kill everything else. Generally they require nothing more than a rejuv here or there - at most one trance.

If there's at least one other 69+ geared person, this makes the run extremely fast, and nobody ever comes close to dying. Why would you not like this :?
Because that doesn't actually work out of rare cases (low end areas). Quake need you don't do anything else and is only useful on weak mobs (the others aren't stunned), your healing over time is pointless since it will fade out before your bubble. At that level, you'll need to cast the quake twice to fully wipe this weak ones, monopolizing all the healer efforts during 15-20 seconds. The other ones are not touched enough to die and need the full attention of the rest of the team. That move leaves the tank unprotected. After a dozen of second of fight, if you feel the tank needs a bubble or heal and start casting that, half of the mobs head to you, your bubble having then faded, you start healing yourself, etc...

Fastest way whenever weaklings are in the pull: let the tank hitting them, the sentinels leaping, the smugglers starting to shoot while you bubble everyone or just the tank then cast quake maybe after a Salvation. Everyone will end the fight full health and energy in seconds, ready for the next pull.

Revenaught's Avatar


Revenaught
07.12.2013 , 08:38 AM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by msfyoung View Post
Here's how my 50 fps go (sage healer)

I'm usually in front thanks to force speed, so I drop a quake on the mobs. My bubble absorbs most damage, self heal takes care of the rest. DPS and tank then catch up - tank taunts the biggest mob, dps and I kill everything else. Generally they require nothing more than a rejuv here or there - at most one trance.

If there's at least one other 69+ geared person, this makes the run extremely fast, and nobody ever comes close to dying. Why would you not like this :?
I don't like this because your stealing my role. If I go in as a tank I expect to tank not be told to go sit in a corner while the gods move among us. Instead of making it all about you why don't you find a way to boost the FP that doesn't involve pushing others out of their role.
Mal - Define interesting.

Wash - Oh God. Oh God. We're all gonna die?

Mal - This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence. So we may experience some slight, turbulence...and then explode.

msfyoung's Avatar


msfyoung
07.12.2013 , 09:04 AM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Revenaught View Post
I don't like this because your stealing my role. If I go in as a tank I expect to tank not be told to go sit in a corner while the gods move among us. Instead of making it all about you why don't you find a way to boost the FP that doesn't involve pushing others out of their role.
I guess the problem is that if the group is decent, the tank's role becomes superfluous. I don't steal their role anyway, I just pull. Stealing their role would involve trying to hold aggro on everything, which would be impossible and dumb.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nkya
Because that doesn't actually work out of rare cases (low end areas). Quake need you don't do anything else and is only useful on weak mobs (the others aren't stunned), your healing over time is pointless since it will fade out before your bubble. At that level, you'll need to cast the quake twice to fully wipe this weak ones, monopolizing all the healer efforts during 15-20 seconds. The other ones are not touched enough to die and need the full attention of the rest of the team. That move leaves the tank unprotected. After a dozen of second of fight, if you feel the tank needs a bubble or heal and start casting that, half of the mobs head to you, your bubble having then faded, you start healing yourself, etc...
None of this stuff happens, because lvl 50 fps are a low end area.

All I know is the fastest runs involve everyone moving at maximum pace, and the slowest ones involve waiting for the tank to pull every single fight.

NoFishing's Avatar


NoFishing
07.12.2013 , 09:28 AM | #58
If this bothers you as a tank, I suggest you get over it when running trivial content.

As a healer, I will *frequently* start fights if we are standing around waiting for too long. I start the pull, DPS kills everything, and I heal them.

For those concerned that pug healers may be working too hard, where is it written that a healer is required to heal DPS that start fights on their own, break CCs, stand in AoEs, or tunnel vision on the strongest mobs?

When I tank my rule is simple - don't pull what you can't kill, as I will not be taunting off you.

Aerro's Avatar


Aerro
07.12.2013 , 09:38 AM | #59
This thread is the reason why I do not do FPs occasionally for comms (to gear alts). I end up pulling off of the tank anyways, even after threat drops, so what is the difference between me tanking and him tanking? If I want to make sure he will always have threat- then that means I will have to sit for half a minute letting him build some up before I can do a single thing. One Tracer Missile will crit for 6k+ in a FP. I fire off 2-3 and now I'm tanking.

There is no point in waiting if the end result is the same. You can work as a team while moving fast- there shouldn't be any hand holding. I've had tanks who chain pulled and it was great, but 9/10 times I have a tank who pulls something and then waits like 2min and then pulls the next pack. Its slow and tiring and serves no purpose.

Its not like we're acting all high and mighty, but to turn a 15min run into a 45min run just because you believe a tank should have the right to hold everyone up because hes the tank, well shame on you. This is why everyone hates pugs.
Arsenal DPS Guide
One of the leading Mercenaries in a World Progression Guild.

Nkya's Avatar


Nkya
07.12.2013 , 12:04 PM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by msfyoung View Post
None of this stuff happens, because lvl 50 fps are a low end area.
.
All of this happens unless you're Chuck Noris: it's part f the sage gameplay. Whatever is your ****** level, if you healer don't heal, others will make pauses to regenerate (or to votekick you)

Quote: Originally Posted by Aerro View Post
I will have to sit for half a minute letting him build some up before I can do a single thing
Wow, watching a group trying to kill a weakling pull during 30 seconds before your wink aggro them all, that should be terrible.