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SinTank Issues Start When?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
SinTank Issues Start When?

TheStampede's Avatar


TheStampede
07.11.2013 , 08:49 PM | #1
Ok, so I have been following the threads lately about Shadow/Assassin spikyness, and I understand that in all end-game content they are more spiky than guardians/VGs. However, at which content tier does this cause a significant problem?

For example, guardians and VGs aside, are Shadows in isolation able to tank HM Flashpoints or HM Ops? If Shadows were the ONLY tank, what would that look like (outside of NiM). Most of the threads I see are in regard to end-game progression such as NiM Ops. I have seen a number of threads where folks have said that outside of any NiM difficulty Shadows are fine (granted spikier than their counterparts, but perfectly viable without having a perfect itemization, perfect execution, perfect healers and perfect co-tank).

So, is that accurate? I am drawing close to 55 on my Assassin; will I find myself pulling out my hair, and questioning why tanking is so difficult? Or will I, with appropriate amounts of effort in itemization and learning the fights, be able to continue forward relatively unhindered by shadow tanking issues outlined in these threads?

Finally, if the case is that shadows are...ahem..."fine" until NiM Ops, what can I do if I wish to sintank those for my guild as well. Simply outgear the content? Struggle regardless of my efforts? Use a certain kind of build or itemization which is overall sub-optimal but will allow me to progress and -somewhat- bypass sintank issues?

Thanks any and all who take time to share their perspectives, but please stick to the facts. All the rhetoric that gets thrown around in these discussions often distracts from clear answers and clean, honest opinion.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.11.2013 , 09:03 PM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by TheStampede View Post
Ok, so I have been following the threads lately about Shadow/Assassin spikyness, and I understand that in all end-game content they are more spiky than guardians/VGs. However, at which content tier does this cause a significant problem?
Shadows suck as tanks from 10 until your 30s, because, for those levels, the only thing you've got to mitigate incoming damage is your armor, and that *sucks* compared to what Guards and VGs get. Of course, the requirements for tanks are really low for those levels, so you'll not likely notice it.

From your mid-30s until 54, you'll notice amazing performance, especially when you learn to use the tools given to you because you finally start getting a nice itemization budget to make up for your terrible armor on top of *finally* getting access to a vast majority of your self healing.

At 55, when you're just starting to do content, you'll be in for a rude awakening. For the hard modes, if you start at appropriate gear levels, you're essentially going to be *forced* into using and abusing your CDs in order to avoid falling over dead for no reason, especially on the really *bad* trash packs (dog packs will be your eternal nemesis). The spike problems just get worse the higher into content you get. Keep in mind, all of this refers to doing content in the *intended* gear level. If you overgear it a piece of content, you're not likely to see any problems (or at least not as extreme).
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dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
07.11.2013 , 09:49 PM | #3
only in 16m nim content have i been like "screw this, bring a jugg"

as a sorc healer

MFollin's Avatar


MFollin
07.11.2013 , 09:56 PM | #4
I leveled my Sintank to 55 a couple of months ago, and I got smacked pretty hard in the first couple of 55HM fp pugs, especially Mandalorian Raiders. As much as getting from 69 items and augmentations helped a good bit, I think a lot of the issues were because I needed to use my CC a lot more than at lvl 30-54. Also, not all pugs understand the "please don't hit the CC'd mobs" concept which makes it harder to tank.

As for the dogs they can be very nasty, but your AoE knockback can buy you a good lot of extra time before they start munching you.

kwestone's Avatar


kwestone
07.12.2013 , 10:03 AM | #5
You wont really notice any issues until you reach the NIM content, and HM 55 FP's as Kitru mentioned. The problem with the 55 FP's only exists if you are pugging, as guild healers and tight groups will know it is coming. A rookie healer will not see the spike issue and you will go down, weather it be on packs or hard hitting bosses. Even with a guild healer you will still have it happen once in a while.

When you enter NIM content, it works to have a single assassin or shadow, but if your group is comprised of two there is no way even the most overpowered healers can keep you both up. As my main healer put it "if I take my attention off you for 1 second you are dead"

You might experience a little trouble in HM S&V for the thrasher fight until you get used to the mechanics, as there is a good amount of damage and the other one in HM that is semi-challenging is the ads that spawn during TFB operator IX (first phase)- If you have two of the big ones beating on you at the same time you will need focused heals and cooldowns to survive that. Mob pulls can be offset by overcharge saber + clicky relics or saber ward, but once the cooldowns run out you will be left to the abilities of your healers.

TL;DR: NIM content is the real issue, however the problem does begin to show in all 55HM endgame content

TheStampede's Avatar


TheStampede
07.12.2013 , 09:59 PM | #6
Thanks for the input guys.

My assassin is lvl 46 atm, and I have a Juggernaut I started who is at lvl 26 to get an idea of the play-style difference. I really enjoy the Juggernaut, but there is some ineffable quality about my Assassin that makes shelving him for any appreciable amount of time impossible.

Maybe I am just a glutton for punishment. So, starting out with the 55 HM FPs, what should I be focusing on for gear? I have seen that the 66 crafted are better than the 69s I am going to see dropping initially anyway, so should I focus on acquiring those first to mitigate (see what I did there?) my difficulty entering HM FPs?

jaliscoautuick's Avatar


jaliscoautuick
07.19.2013 , 05:55 PM | #7
I have played all the different tank classes (1 jugg/1 guardian, 1 BH, and 1 shadow), all 55, and all have done hard mode flashpoints. I don't have any knowledge of Ops, so can't help there.

But, from everything else, I will say continue playing what you like, even if it's a shadow tank or the inquisitor tank =)

I will say, that once or twice i was surprised to "fall over" on my shadow tank. Just bam, dead. I was like ***.

the 55 hard mode flash points require some coordination and skill level (by the group). So, there is no shame in getting beat down, esp. when starting them out. Sometimes, you just need more healing and the healer needs to know that (i usually tell them) just to be on the safe side =)

In any event, I have learned to blow all your cooldowns as often as you can. No point in saving them for an "oh no," moment.

I guess same is true for all the different classes though.

I play them all fairly equally, but I will say, personal taste wise, I really like that the shadow can go stealth. I just don't do dailies very often (like on Makeb, if I don't have stealth class) heh So, that is a major plus.

shadowflit's Avatar


shadowflit
07.20.2013 , 03:22 PM | #8
As a healer who has seen all of 8 man NiM TfB (cleared to Terror) and started work on S&V, I have had no complaints with our Shadow. You will need your cooldowns on trash pulls starting with HM FP 55s, but otherwise no biggie.

My complaints have come in when we used two VGs for some fights, and I would prefer if our main VG tank used his Guardian instead.

Can shadows/sins be spiky? Sure. Are all these fine folk on the forums wrong? No. But if you like your Sin tank you'll be fine for non-progression everywhere, and depending on your group you'll be just fine for progression too (ex: don't bring two Sorc healers, you'll just be compounding your problem and require them to be that much better. Abuse sniper shields in rough transitions).
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msfyoung's Avatar


msfyoung
07.25.2013 , 06:40 AM | #9
As a sage I like healing our shadow most. Shadow/sin does have issues in nim, but they've become rather overstated now.

Yngow's Avatar


Yngow
07.25.2013 , 09:20 AM | #10
The tendency is, as a the gear level gets higher the rng problems happen less often, I'd like to know how a full 75-geared shadow would perform, when my shadow got at hm-ready level gear it was *much* better, I don't have many problems on 8-man hm ops but the healers need to always know when big dmg is incoming and is they stop paying attention to me for 2secs I probably die but this is not such a big problem.
16-man hm ops on the other hand is terrible, yesterday I was almost one-shot by the bodyguards on olok the shadow
Code:
23:14:54.412	103s	Wrist Laser Burst	3349 kinetic	No	Bodyguard
23:14:54.413	103s	Wrist Laser Burst	0	No	Bodyguard
23:14:54.413	103s	Wrist Laser Burst	6603 kinetic	No	Bodyguard
23:14:54.910	103s	Melee Attack	4269 kinetic	No	Bodyguard
23:14:55.822	104s	Lunge	13206 kinetic	No	Bodyguard
27427 dmg in 1 second, my total health is something like 33500 with buff and rakata stim (what I was using at the time), and it could have been worse because I shielded one attack and defended the other
http://www.torparse.com/a/353721/13/0/Damage+Taken
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