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PT/VG Tank Spreadsheet including accurate relic effects for 2.0

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles > Tanking
PT/VG Tank Spreadsheet including accurate relic effects for 2.0

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.08.2013 , 11:40 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by fire-breath View Post
However ..... you forgot about the 4% ablative armor skill.
Actually, no, I didn't. I specifically referenced Energy Blast and Power Screen. The sum total of *those* two effects is 17%. I didn't mention the 4% passive whatsoever nor did the post the I quoted to actually provide the numbers I did. I actually didn't even look at the OP's spreadsheet (I don't really need to use one) and was simply referring to the 17% number that MGN was referring to (specifically, from Energy Blast and Power Screen) in *his* post (hence why I quoted *him* rather than the OP).

Basically, I wasn't referencing 17% as a total value but rather *only* as the sum of EB and PS (the variable uptime abilities). I even broke down the relevant contributions of the individual pieces so that it was *obvious* I wasn't including the passives.

I don't really get involved in the spreadsheeting of things. I've never check or used *any* of them since I'm perfectly capable of parsing all of the factors myself. If they need to know the contributions of specific mechanisms to put *into* their spreadsheets, I'm perfectly capable and willing to provide it (which is what I've always done), but I've got no interest (nor have I *ever*) of going through individual spreadsheets to validate every piece of information within them.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
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Redklaw's Avatar


Redklaw
07.08.2013 , 01:05 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by fire-breath View Post
About that shield/energyblast. Kitru is correct. The % of absorb should be around 17%.
However ..... you forgot about the 4% ablative armor skill. Total absorb rating gained by skills is 17%+4%= 21%

About the frequency of blasting:
I can tell you that in practise I blast about every 10 seconds (minimum is 9 seconds). But taking human error into account would be difficult. If thats the case then goodluck with shadow calcs. If you are out of your lazy mood you can always make a choice button about how fast the user normally clicks his/her blast.
The original guesstimation was 13% from the two skills added to the 4% from ablative. I'm not sure if I should up that to 17% for a total of 21% or about 18-20% or so. I agree with the previous poster that more testing is required. I'd rather go with average optimal values here, since if you're bothering to do the math, you probably are pretty good with your rotation.

Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik View Post
those values do affect the bis calc. taking into account the percent of damage that is at 90%$ accuracy affects the value of defense. resist chance changes the value of shield.

STUFF
You've convinced me; I will be updating the spreadsheet to include these factors. Thanks for the extra work :P. Where do you're assumptions come from btw, extrapolated from parses?

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.08.2013 , 01:28 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Redklaw View Post
I'm not sure if I should up that to 17% for a total of 21% or about 18-20% or so.
I would say you should go with 20.5% total. My math says it's 16.33%, but, as stated before, it's actually a mite low because of not including HS due to insufficient information. A .17% increase is conservative guesstimate for how much it improves.
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fire-breath's Avatar


fire-breath
07.08.2013 , 02:59 PM | #14
Lol, sry for not being clear Kitru. In my post I was referencing this part and not you. The 'you' in the post I made was MGNMTTRN

Quote: Originally Posted by MGNMTTRN View Post
Under Absorb Quantity/Skills am I reading that your overall time-weighted Absorb bonus from heat blast and the 3 pre-blast procs are assumed to be +17%? I'm curious to see what uptime PTs/Vanguards in live conditions are actually seeing.
So ....... I think my post quoted below makes more sense now ;-)

Quote:
About that shield/energyblast. Kitru is correct. The % of absorb should be around 17%.
However ..... you forgot about the 4% ablative armor skill. Total absorb rating gained by skills is 17%+4%= 21%

About the frequency of blasting:
I can tell you that in practise I blast about every 10 seconds (minimum is 9 seconds). But taking human error into account would be difficult. If thats the case then goodluck with shadow calcs. If you are out of your lazy mood you can always make a choice button about how fast the user normally clicks his/her blast.
Quote: Originally Posted by Redklaw View Post
The original guesstimation was 13% from the two skills added to the 4% from ablative. I'm not sure if I should up that to 17% for a total of 21% or about 18-20% or so. I agree with the previous poster that more testing is required. I'd rather go with average optimal values here, since if you're bothering to do the math, you probably are pretty good with your rotation.
You're the boss, boss
Without kidding, yes, I'm not bad at rotation. I might not be the best tank ever, but I try to click energyblast off cd when I tank something.

I was in the midst of adapting your shield for my own use. But since you are going to update it i'll wait.
The only problem I had is that I dont know how the internal resistance is being calculated.

Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik
set bonus: 2% resistance, 2% defense
resist buff: 10% internal resistance

Some testing I did:
Here is vid of me being wacked on by some mobs to see how long the cd lasted.

Log from an ops bossfight in which I averaged out on 10,67 seconds effective cd after removing the times I didnt had something to tank. I happy to get you some more details from parses.

Spoiler


Quote: Originally Posted by MGNMTTRN View Post
Looking at two recent HM SNV and HM TFB runs (ignoring ops chief, olok, and the horror; I should have ignored OP IX but I didn't), I saw heat blast uptimes between 47% on Dash'rode and 30% on operator IX. If I assume that my downtime was equally split between a state of +0 absorb, +1 absorb, +2 absorb, and +3 absorb, then I get values slightly lower than +17

<snip>

So based upon my parses, I have to agree that +16 or 17% absorb from heat blast-related effects when tanking the boss is reasonable. But I still do think other Vanguards/Powertechs need to chime in to confirm that they are seeing similar results. If people don't want to open up a spreadsheet editor but do still want to check their logs, a general rule for calculating uptime is (6*eblast count)/(minutes*60 +sec) should be between 0.35 and 0.45; if not, then either playstyle or this 16/17% estimation needs refinement.
I quickly watched your Dashrood upload. If I remove 1 energyblast that took you 20 seconds to reapply then you are averaging out on 10,7 second.
Hereby I chime in with saying, yes energyblast is about 17% extra absorb with a bit of human error melded into it

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
07.08.2013 , 05:00 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Redklaw View Post
Where do you're assumptions come from btw, extrapolated from parses?
basically going through skill trees and ability lists, talking with people with those classes (i dont have a VG on live) and making sure all the numbers line up, talking to people about their rotation to see how often you can execute this or that. alot of it has come from posting my assumptions (which very few people do) and having people like kbn and kitru chime in on something missing etc.. you can see the list of stuff i have for vanguards in my 2.2 tank builds thread.

the way in which rolls work and the states associated with the rolls is all info developed over the history of the game from dev posts and gamers trying to figure out the mechanics, and form the mechanics we can craft models. and the bis numbers i suggest are just based on the model.

MGNMTTRN's Avatar


MGNMTTRN
07.08.2013 , 05:34 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by fire-breath View Post
Lol, sry for not being clear Kitru. In my post I was referencing this part and not you. The 'you' in the post I made was MGNMTTRN
Quote: Originally Posted by MGNMTTRN View Post
Under Absorb Quantity/Skills am I reading that your overall time-weighted Absorb bonus from heat blast and the 3 pre-blast procs are assumed to be +17%? I'm curious to see what uptime PTs/Vanguards in live conditions are actually seeing.
For what it's worth, I don't think I forgot the +4 absorb; in my post I was only writing about the +25% energy blast and the max +3% from power screen stacks. If the +17% absorb in the spreadsheet is encompassing both energy blast effects and ceramic plating, that is probably too low. Assuming other Vanguards have a similar playstyle to me, the minimum contribution would be ~13.25 + 4 = 17.25. I call this the minimum because this is an adversarial position: I assumed that players were spending an unhealthy amount of time at +0 absorb, and in many of those fights I was not proccing energy blast as often as I could for some reason.

I think this discussion is revealing that Energy Blast will need a more complex model in the future.
Quote: Originally Posted by fire-breath View Post
As Fire-Breath's video shows, and as can probably imagine, the cooldown of energy blast will depend enormously upon the conditions of the specific fights we'll find ourselves in. The situation where you find yourself beset by 3 or 4+ weak enemies is well-suited to a Vanguard, because your probability of reducing energy blast cooldown scales up slightly (though that upscaling has DR) with each additional enemy that attacks you; compare to Shadows, whose HTPS makes up a more significant portion of their mitigation and doesn't scale much with damage taken; these people effectively have an incentive to tank as few enemies as possible.

Suppose in the future an operation is released where a very weak add does 100 DPS against me and his attacks all have a 90% accuracy; since his attacks have a high chance of hitting me, they also have a high chance of being shielded. Now I'm taking an extra 100 DPS, but he could be shifting my energy blast uptime from 6/10.5 = 0.57 to 6/(10.5-1.5) = 0.66. Depending upon the damage that I'm receiving from the boss, actually keeping this weak add up might be a good investment for my survivability, both for minimizing spike damage and minimizing overall DTPS, because his flat 100 extra DTPS might allow me to take one or two more boss strikes that are not only shielded, but shielded with the +25% absorb bonus from energy blast.

Vanguards/PTs also can stagger their absorb bonuses to temporarily minimize spike damage. For example, if I see that my absorb relic has procced (+x absorb for 6 seconds, 20 sec cooldown) I might delay the cast of my energy blast by 2 or 3 seconds, until the effect of the absorb relic has faded, so I can maintain a steadier absorb%. Whether this can actually be a useful practice will depend upon the size of that +x that absorb proc relics will bestow in the future, and upon the amount of spike damage that future operations will have.

To account for the variety of factors that affect energy blast effective cooldown, I'd suggest applying the +4 absorb from ceramic plating, assuming that power screen gives an average of +2 absorb over time, and then let energy blast's uptime be specified as anything from 80% to 35%, default 6/11 = 0.54.

The current models of energy blast assume a fixed shield and/or an energy blast cooldown that is independent of shield, but energy blast's cooldown will decrease by a non-negligible amount as we gear up and as shield% increases. In the future, for those of you heavily involved in modelling DTPS - HPS, relics, and spike damage, this will be a relevant change you will need to enact.

Redklaw's Avatar


Redklaw
07.08.2013 , 07:15 PM | #17
https://skydrive.live.com/redir?page...O8-ABtTd9YYs9o

Updated the spreadsheet with better formula's to calculate mean mitigation, also pushed up the the total absorb rating bonus from 17% to 20.5%. Thanks everyone for the feedback, it's been much appreciated, keep it coming .

Quote: Originally Posted by MGNMTTRN View Post
STUFF
I'm finding myself reserving rs/hib and rocket punch when heat blast is close to coming off cooldown, HIB seems to normally grant 2 stacks (possibly due to proximity procs from the autocleave?, I need to look at my fights / logs closer) and rocket punch grants one stack automatically. I personally have very little downtime between 3 stacks heat screen and the heat blast effect. This may be something I'm overestimating on how often actually happens for the third stack to fill; since I'm only really noticing it when I pay attention to that portion of my rotation, and I'm biased to be unaware of when I'm not paying attention to my rotation. The cooldown reductions on HB/EB are something I'm just not paying attention to at all however.

The usage of relics for burst mitigation is one of the primary reasons I originally built this sheet, since the effect of boosting is magnified when in a fight due to reduced time on agro (tank swaps, rest mechanics, etc). Pretty much with most raid mechanics you can treat almost all damage as spike damage, since you rarely don't have some type of cool-down running. I also want to add the effect of adrenals for this reason in addition to the effect they have on stat balancing.

Eventually I want to migrate this spreadsheet to a MSVC program, which will make modeling more complex damage mechanics easier. I really haven't had time lately to start porting things over, but soon...

Btw just noticed that was you Metallic ! Feel free to hop in our mumble or whisper me if you catch errors or anything else that you think needs to be added / changed.