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Master Jun Seros, TOTAL *******

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Master Jun Seros, TOTAL *******

Callaron's Avatar


Callaron
07.04.2013 , 04:52 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
Now I loved the BH storyline, it's one of my favorites (more so than the JK or SW ones, which are generally considered the best because of the epic feeling), but let's not kid ourselves. BH is not an innocent person, and neither were the other bounty hunters.

And with how the storyline plays out, I'd guess it was written with the idea that you kill the Padawan too.
Even if you save the Padawan on the ship, I'm pretty sure in some later encounter (next chapter) she still comes after you with a bunch of toadies, at which point you fight and kill her too - so either way, she eventually winds up dead.
It was something where I can imagine my Bounty Hunter sighing at the foolishness, if he wiped the floor with her Master how on Earth did the Pawadan think she stood a chance?
Also, I thought the majority of people prefered the IA storyline - each time I've seen a poll on it, it wipes the floor with all the other choices.

I think Jun Seros was well on his way to becoming a second Nomen Karr, he became obsessed with the Bounty Hunter and he would've thrown every resource at the Hunter's capture, no matter how often it got his people killed - and to justify his relentless pursuit he fabricated a bunch of lies.
I generally like to think that my (LS) Bounty Hunter often doesn't shoot to kill, unless there is no other way - but I'm also not under the impression that he, nor any of the other Empire classes, is a truly good person.
The mere choice of profession alone already makes it questionable.
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
07.04.2013 , 05:00 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
I don't recall the spy or wife of an Imperial officer he was sleeping with, being armed. Though, that was less a BH quest and more a side quest.

Of course he's killed Sith. There's no such thing as a good Sith (outside of possibly the PCs and even then, I swear there were some options where you were just going to do something evil regardless, but for different motivations for LS or DS).

And a group of BH's who would kill any target for the right price. Some of the contracts weren't "Oh this is a terrible person" some of those contracts where "This good person upset me in some way" and some of them for the Great Hunt was basically "Ooooo...this target would be a great challenge for anyone."

The Great Hunt is all about turning murder into a game "Let's play who's the better killer."

You think people are in the wrong to think the Jedi was on some noble cause, but the BH wasn't doing anything noble, other than killing for glory/money.

Now if choosen, the BH could have some sort of moral code.

But face it, the BH kills a Jedi Master because he kicked Mandalorian butt when they sided with the Sith on the Sacking of Curoscant. That's right, they wanted to kill a Jedi because they invaded and then got their butt kicked.

They put a bounty on a Jedi, because the Jedi was freeing people who were invaded and then put under martial law by an evil government (or if you'd rather, a government they didn't want over them).

So you kill that Jedi, and Seros comes in, seeking justice and revenge, and willing to do anything possible to get it.

Now I loved the BH storyline, it's one of my favorites (more so than the JK or SW ones, which are generally considered the best because of the epic feeling), but let's not kid ourselves. BH is not an innocent person, and neither were the other bounty hunters.

And with how the storyline plays out, I'd guess it was written with the idea that you kill the Padawan too.
We are not considering the facts at hand here though. Jun Seros wanted to bring the Bounty Hunter to 'justice' for killing a Jedi Master, despite said master being an enemy of the Mandalorians who are in an alliance with the Empire. This is not a question of morals or law, this is war, and in war the opposing sides are going to attempt to kill each other.

The Bounty Hunter killing the Jedi Master from a neutral perspective is no different than Jun Seros killing a Sith Lord or other important member of the Empire. Maybe the Bounty Hunter's moral compass is out of line, but the fact remains he is operating within the laws of the Empire, the Mandalorians and the conduct of war.

This is not a question of justice, and Jun Seros claiming to be on a campaign of that kind is simply incorrect and points to nothing other than arrogance and misplaced self-righteousness.

On the other hand Jun Seros can be accused of the murder of the former winners of the Great Hunt without provocation, (who are not affiliated with the Empire in any way.) I am aware of no law within the Republic that justifies the execution of criminals without trial, and that's without considering whether a bunch of aging bounty hunters who has been out of the business for an odd decade or so can be considered a criminal.

Here Jun Seros has violated the laws of both the Republic and the Jedi Order. And that's without considering the fact that he wrongly accused the Bounty Hunter of crimes he had not committed.

Simply put, if anyone should be brought to 'justice' it should be Jun Seros. And even the Supreme Chancellor himself realised this and he resigned out of shame for his actions. Clearly the writers at Bioware were deliberately placing Jun Seros in the wrong, giving the opportunity for players to choose a more morally aligned Bounty Hunter if they chose to spare the Chancellor and defeat Darth Tormen.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
07.04.2013 , 05:04 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Callaron View Post
...but I'm also not under the impression that he, nor any of the other Empire classes, is a truly good person.
The mere choice of profession alone already makes it questionable.
My BH has no moral compass whatsoever other than protecting and respecting his allies and any others he deems worthy of his favour. I sided with Darth Tormen and shot the Supreme Chancellor right between the eyes out of revenge and a lust for glory and power. But don't expect by BH to turn himself in to 'the Man' in the name of 'justice' when he himself is a hypocritical, two-faced liar.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
07.04.2013 , 05:55 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
We are not considering the facts at hand here though. Jun Seros wanted to bring the Bounty Hunter to 'justice' for killing a Jedi Master, despite said master being an enemy of the Mandalorians who are in an alliance with the Empire. This is not a question of morals or law, this is war, and in war the opposing sides are going to attempt to kill each other.

The Bounty Hunter killing the Jedi Master from a neutral perspective is no different than Jun Seros killing a Sith Lord or other important member of the Empire. Maybe the Bounty Hunter's moral compass is out of line, but the fact remains he is operating within the laws of the Empire, the Mandalorians and the conduct of war.

This is not a question of justice, and Jun Seros claiming to be on a campaign of that kind is simply incorrect and points to nothing other than arrogance and misplaced self-righteousness.

On the other hand Jun Seros can be accused of the murder of the former winners of the Great Hunt without provocation, (who are not affiliated with the Empire in any way.) I am aware of no law within the Republic that justifies the execution of criminals without trial, and that's without considering whether a bunch of aging bounty hunters who has been out of the business for an odd decade or so can be considered a criminal.

Here Jun Seros has violated the laws of both the Republic and the Jedi Order. And that's without considering the fact that he wrongly accused the Bounty Hunter of crimes he had not committed.

Simply put, if anyone should be brought to 'justice' it should be Jun Seros. And even the Supreme Chancellor himself realised this and he resigned out of shame for his actions. Clearly the writers at Bioware were deliberately placing Jun Seros in the wrong, giving the opportunity for players to choose a more morally aligned Bounty Hunter if they chose to spare the Chancellor and defeat Darth Tormen.
The BH killed a Jedi Master, in a war he/she had no part of, nor any relation to (the BH wasn't a Mando), for nothing more than sport/money.

You bring hired killers to justice. Of course the story is written as it is, because they don't want the BH looking like the villain.

Let's go with, "This is war" you mean the line were the BH says "This isn't my war" sooo, we go back to BH is a hired killer. Might be a hired killer that requires contracts first, and may even decide if the target is worth it for whatever reason (money, challenge, fame, what have you), but the Jedi Master the BH kills was not a killer, was not evil, was infact a defender of innocents, but the one's hurting the innocents happened to be Mandos.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

TheSelkie's Avatar


TheSelkie
07.04.2013 , 06:56 PM | #25
It depends on the laws in Star Wars. In real life we have international laws governing the matter, if a mercenary (the BH) is involved in a legal conflict, then you can't hunt him down afterwards and try to kill him (in the same way you can't hunt down retired enemy soldiers). If they don't have some form of galactic laws in place (to prevent torture, war crimes etc.) then it's fair game. It's probably quite un-jedilike though.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
07.05.2013 , 03:23 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
The BH killed a Jedi Master, in a war he/she had no part of, nor any relation to (the BH wasn't a Mando), for nothing more than sport/money.

You bring hired killers to justice. Of course the story is written as it is, because they don't want the BH looking like the villain.

Let's go with, "This is war" you mean the line were the BH says "This isn't my war" sooo, we go back to BH is a hired killer. Might be a hired killer that requires contracts first, and may even decide if the target is worth it for whatever reason (money, challenge, fame, what have you), but the Jedi Master the BH kills was not a killer, was not evil, was infact a defender of innocents, but the one's hurting the innocents happened to be Mandos.
Again we are changing the facts based on our own player perspective. Case in point: I don't recall my BH ever saying 'this isn't my war' in fact from my perspective this is his war, he has a vested interest in the Empire winning the conflict. In fact, my BH says as much at the end of Rise of the Hutt Cartel. In the end he works for the Empire, not the Republic.

He is on their side. If the Imperials attempted to arrest him for killing Moff whoever they might have a point, but this is the enemy we are talking about. What right do they have to lecture me on justice, when I an well within my rights to shoot them right between the eyes? Given that we are at war?

Regardless of that, the BH whether it was for glory of riches, took on a contract from the Mandalorians who are allies of the Empire and enemies of the Republic. Essentially he was fulfilling a contract in aid of the Mandalorian and Imperial war effort. These are no grounds for a campaign of justice against him, when the BH is merely doing what Jun Seros himself has done on countless occasions. No laws or code of conduct have been violated, yet Jun Seros has violated both Republic laws and the Jedi Code. He is more in the wrong than the BH.

Mercurial_Harpy's Avatar


Mercurial_Harpy
07.05.2013 , 09:16 AM | #27
Pretty much everything Beniboybling said. Well done, sir!

Look, for those of you who want to be an apologist for all Jedi, light, dark, or gray, no matter what they do, we can't stop you. Jedi are Jedi because they are supposed to rise above things like anger and revenge. They are trained for years and years and years to detach from these feelings, because if you indulge them, given the powers at your disposal, you end up acting like a Sith. Nomen Carr from the SW story is a perfect example, as is Master Seros. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, and both had good intentions.

As for the BH, he/she is what he is. He's a hired killer, with a marginal allegiance to the Empire (moreso after Makeb, but that comes later), and possibly a Mandalorian if that's what you chose. Yes, even LS BH; at one point you are essentially called out by Mako AND Blizz for the work you do.

Spoiler

This all plays into future chapters of the game. With a new warmongering Supreme Chancellor at the helm, the Republic is going to run into big problems, in the form of "how much do they have to become like the enemy to fight the enemy and prevail?" Or, if some Jedi choose to fight the Sith on their terms, are they still Jedi? The answer is, not really. And thanks to Seros, the beginning of the falling dominoes, the Hunter is now working along side the Dark Council, and the bloodshed continues.

So please, stop saying "but, but they were KILLERS!." That's irrelevant. The Jedi are supposed to be better than that, and Seros wasn't. Case closed.

* * *
~The Argost Legacy~

~Jedi Covenant~

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
07.05.2013 , 09:20 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Mercurial_Harpy View Post
So please, stop saying "but, but they were KILLERS!." That's irrelevant. The Jedi are supposed to be better than that, and Seros wasn't. Case closed.
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