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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

Sharee's Avatar


Sharee
07.03.2013 , 08:27 AM | #4171
Quote: Originally Posted by Wainamoinen View Post
Terrible example, two reasons:

1) From a tactical viewpoint, because it actually undermines your own position.

If you have solo-only, there's nothing to stop Mike Tyson entering solo, getting drawn against your high-schoolers, and proceeding to hospitalise them.
But, this is a team game. If team compositions are totally random (PUG vs PUG) then yes, one game a tyson on team A might make team B lose, but another game the tyson will be on team B, and yet another game both teams will get one. The random nature of solo queueing will ensure every participant will have his share of wins, and losses, like it should be.

Quote: Originally Posted by Wainamoinen View Post
Your example actually argues for rmatchmaking, because that way Mike Tyson's aren't pitted against high-schoolers. Then you'd have matches at various levels where ability is approximately equal. An open solo-only queue fails to do this and will still see people getting roflstomped by mismatches.
Oh, but i do not oppose matchmaking at all! In fact i proposed a skill-based matchmaking system myself back in the thread, where all individual players are assigned hidden(win/loss based) rating and then the server tries to balance the overall ratings of the two teams to be roughly the same.

Quote: Originally Posted by Wainamoinen View Post
2) The difference between players in SWTOR PvP isn't comparable to Mike Tyson v High Schoolers.

A fully-grown Mike Tyson has resourvces of physical power and training that the child can't possibly match. In SWTOR PvP with Bolster, characters start much closer to the maximum power, and have the ability to quickly match veterans in raw power, so that contests are decided on skill and other elements of good play rather than a mismatch in raw power.
I simply used that as an example of a grossly unbalanced match-up. Obviously the exact reason why Tyson would beat a highschooler are different from the exact reason a premade would beat a PUG. That's not the point. The point is that both matchups should never happen in the firstplace.

Quote: Originally Posted by Wainamoinen View Post
Quick additional edit: Just want to emphasise that I don't think letting Mike Tyson brutalise highchoolers (SWTOR stylee) is a great idea - I just don't think solo-only-queue is the solution to people not enjoying one-sided matches.
I'm not a fan of a hard-coded solo queue either. My order of preference is

1, individual skill-based matchmaking
2, toggle allowing solo-queuers to avoid groups(optional, not always-on)
3, always-on separate queue for players who join solo (only if the above two are impossible for some reason)

Atramar's Avatar


Atramar
07.03.2013 , 08:43 AM | #4172
Win/lose ratio, my thoughts:
scenario 1:
32 people in que: 16 pugs, 2 premade high ratio win, 2 premade low ratio win.
how it could match people -
1 wz 1 premade high rate premade + 4 high rate pugs vs 1 high premade vs high rade pugs
2nd wz 1 low premade + 4 low rate pugs vs 1 low premade + 4 low rate pugs.
or
1wz 1 premade hi + 1 premade low vs 1 premade hi + 1 premade low
2wz pugs vs pugs matched to have same avarage win/lose ratio

scenario2:
16 people in que - one 4 man hi rate 12 random pugs
wz hi rate premade with low rate pugs vs avg rate pugs.

cons: people who lose all the time and know nothing of their class (being often reason why team lost) will get carried eventually by hi rate premade (and think they'r good)
pros:less chance of '20 ques in a row with *stupid* always losing' kind of a day.

thoughts?
legacy wide ratio or character ratio?
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Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
07.03.2013 , 08:50 AM | #4173
Quote: Originally Posted by Atramar View Post
Win/lose ratio, my thoughts:
scenario 1:
32 people in que: 16 pugs, 2 premade high ratio win, 2 premade low ratio win.
how it could match people -
1 wz 1 premade high rate premade + 4 high rate pugs vs 1 high premade vs high rade pugs
2nd wz 1 low premade + 4 low rate pugs vs 1 low premade + 4 low rate pugs.
or
1wz 1 premade hi + 1 premade low vs 1 premade hi + 1 premade low
2wz pugs vs pugs matched to have same avarage win/lose ratio

scenario2:
16 people in que - one 4 man hi rate 12 random pugs
wz hi rate premade with low rate pugs vs avg rate pugs.

cons: people who lose all the time and know nothing of their class (being often reason why team lost) will get carried eventually by hi rate premade (and think they'r good)
pros:less chance of '20 ques in a row with *stupid* always losing' kind of a day.

thoughts?
legacy wide ratio or character ratio?
The hitch in the plan is that there are 2 factions. In a low population scenario where you literally only have enough for 2 games, matchmaking will do nothing. The chances of actually having 16 of each faction queuing is slim if 32 total are queuing and then the probably of an even match existing between them is even lower.

But, in high population situations, this scenario works out very well. The other positive, is at least you get games to pop in the low population scenario, whereas a solo queue may not have the right balance to get 2 games going (one more solo or grouper and only one game or no game pops).

I think at this point most of the NA PvPers have transferred a toon to either Bastion or POT5 and if they haven't, then I'm sure they are feeling the queue difference now. I'd like to find a solution to everyone's scenario, but with the PvP population being focused in these areas, I think any attempt to improve matches will have to be focused on the situation on these two servers.
I have opinions and stuff

Technohic's Avatar


Technohic
07.03.2013 , 09:48 AM | #4174
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
The hitch in the plan is that there are 2 factions. In a low population scenario where you literally only have enough for 2 games, matchmaking will do nothing. The chances of actually having 16 of each faction queuing is slim if 32 total are queuing and then the probably of an even match existing between them is even lower.

But, in high population situations, this scenario works out very well. The other positive, is at least you get games to pop in the low population scenario, whereas a solo queue may not have the right balance to get 2 games going (one more solo or grouper and only one game or no game pops).

I think at this point most of the NA PvPers have transferred a toon to either Bastion or POT5 and if they haven't, then I'm sure they are feeling the queue difference now. I'd like to find a solution to everyone's scenario, but with the PvP population being focused in these areas, I think any attempt to improve matches will have to be focused on the situation on these two servers.
I'm wondering if those 2 servers having an even more healthy ranked scene will further mute the issue in the first place.
Quote: Originally Posted by proverbs 26:4
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will also be like him.

TonyDragonflame's Avatar


TonyDragonflame
07.03.2013 , 11:26 AM | #4175
Quote: Originally Posted by Sharee View Post
See blizzard statement about 8 man pug actually being at a huge disadvantage.

I'll take the word of professionals who do this for a living over some random forum poster. No offense.

:
^ exactly.

How calls guys, who use non-game software which provide for them significant advantage over other players in pvp?

Hackers. Cheaters. Exploiters.

Premaders used software voice-teamspeak, which make HUGE advantage in objective-based game.

Honest solo-queue players dont want play versus cheaters and exploiters.
Honest solo-queue players want playing fair game, only with/versus other honest solo players.

Lets cheaters and exploiters from premades who used non-game software for their advantage in game plays each other, and all their cheat advantage will be annihilate in this case.
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Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
07.03.2013 , 11:45 AM | #4176
Quote: Originally Posted by TonyDragonflame View Post
^ exactly.

How calls guys, who use non-game software which provide for them significant advantage over other players in pvp?

Hackers. Cheaters. Exploiters.

Premaders used software voice-teamspeak, which make HUGE advantage in objective-based game.

Honest solo-queue players dont want play versus cheaters and exploiters.
Honest solo-queue players want playing fair game, only with/versus other honest solo players.

Lets cheaters and exploiters from premades who used non-game software for their advantage in game plays each other, and all their cheat advantage will be annihilate in this case.
*Waits patiently for one of the reasonable, sensible PuG'ers to police their own.*
Player Responsibility: Players have the responsibility to strive for improvement before asking for changes.
Player Accountability: Insufficient credits, lack of gear, poor reputation, and inability to compete is the price of laziness, incompetence, and/or unwillingness.

MotorCityMan's Avatar


MotorCityMan
07.03.2013 , 11:53 AM | #4177
Quote: Originally Posted by TonyDragonflame View Post
^ exactly.
I love this guy. Not quite the way I would have phrased it, but he has undeniable panache.

DimeStax's Avatar


DimeStax
07.03.2013 , 02:57 PM | #4178
Quote: Originally Posted by TonyDragonflame View Post
^ exactly.

How calls guys, who use non-game software which provide for them significant advantage over other players in pvp?

Hackers. Cheaters. Exploiters.

Premaders used software voice-teamspeak, which make HUGE advantage in objective-based game.

Honest solo-queue players dont want play versus cheaters and exploiters.
Honest solo-queue players want playing fair game, only with/versus other honest solo players.

Lets cheaters and exploiters from premades who used non-game software for their advantage in game plays each other, and all their cheat advantage will be annihilate in this case.
::blinks::

On that note I think it's time for this thread to end before anyone else reads themselves retarded.
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Vasagi's Avatar


Vasagi
07.03.2013 , 03:14 PM | #4179
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
*Waits patiently for one of the reasonable, sensible PuG'ers to police their own.*
I'm still trying to use google translate to figure out what he said.

I just want to give a quick reponse to your "I'm done being nice, suffer the wrath of my intellect!" post a few pages back.

Group players who would choose to stick with their premades instead of solo queue are EXCLUDING THEMSELVES from the solo queue, the game isn't doing it. You equate "If I can't do this my way, I won't do it at all" with "You must follow the rules if you want to do this, but anyone who follows the rules is welcome".

I know people keep saying "it's not about the game being fun...", but that is EXACTLY what it is about. Do you think people are quitting because the game is really fun, but they just want to take up sumo wrestling instead? Of course not. They quit because they would rather do something more enjoyable in their free time. For pvp players, going 1-9 in an evening and facing the same premade 7 times is not fun at all.

If BW doesn't want this game to continue shrinking, they will find a way to make pvp fun for everyone, not just the people in premades.

Comfterbilly's Avatar


Comfterbilly
07.03.2013 , 05:40 PM | #4180
Quote: Originally Posted by MotorCityMan View Post
I love this guy. Not quite the way I would have phrased it, but he has undeniable panache.
Yeah I love most of TonyDragonflame's posts, actually. Some of them crack me up, some of them are too dead-on for words, I have both enjoyed and been like "hell yes".
A man is only as strong as the computer he plays Huttball on...

***Sign the Solo-Only que for Warzone PVP.***
***Pug Vs. Premade: Vicious Verbal Jousting.***