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Fixing Shadow Tank Spikiness

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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
06.24.2013 , 09:13 AM | #181
Quote: Originally Posted by Eternalnight View Post
And it's not all about going for more healing. I wouldn't mind the overall healing to be very slightly lowered if in exchange we could get bigger heals just after larger spikes of damage taken.
That doesn't actually address spikiness whatsoever though. It makes the self healing more *applicable* because it scales better with incoming damage, normalizing the performance of Shadows across high and low DtPS scenarios, but, because it's *reactive* mitigation, will do nothing to help you survive a bit hit. You have to *survive* the spike for any kind of self healing to be useful. Since we rely so *much* on our self healing (~25% of total mitigation), this means that we're only tackling spikes with 75% of our mitigation only ~30% of which is actually static with the remainder being DR based (which doesn't really count in spike scenarios since you can't rely on it; people die when they *don't* get a Def/Shield, not when they *do*). In short, against spike damage, we only really get to apply 30% of our total mitigation.

As such, the way to *reduce* spikiness isn't to tweak how our self healing is applied (as previously mentioned, you have to *survive* a spike to make self healing useful; Death Strike was effective because it provided an *absorb shield* that scaled with the self healing that scaled with incoming damage and you actively moved to make that absorb shield *bigger* with Mastery), it's to modify our mitigation profile so that we rely *less* on RNG mechanisms and reactive mechanisms.

Personally, I'd much rather see a drastic reduction in our reliance upon reactive mechanisms (re: self healing) more than RNG mechanisms (RE: Def, Shield, Abs) because the reactive mechanisms are more complex to cause to scale (and, yes, while it's *possible*, it's *still* more complex than adjusting numbers in an existing system, especially since you're asking for a new system to be designed exclusively for Shadow tanks to use) and are the *worst* kind of mitigation from a functional standpoint (avoid damage always > avoid damage sometimes > recover from damage).
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Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
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EFSoupy's Avatar


EFSoupy
06.24.2013 , 09:50 AM | #182
So, as I read through all the posts, I'm becoming more and more convinced the best solution is up DR from armor, nerf self heals. Making that change reduces the skill requirement for shadows, so I think it's fair to increase our required external healing, but it seems to me like one of the few effective solutions that should be fairly easy to change in the code (changing a few values). There are a lot of more elegant ideas out there that would make for more interesting mechanics, but it would take a long while to write the code and another year to debug it after it went live. My $0.02.
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Botho's Avatar


Botho
06.24.2013 , 05:32 PM | #183
Seems like theres nothing for us in 2.2.1 anyhoo, ah well. Maybe 2.3 or 4.0 lol..

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
06.24.2013 , 05:35 PM | #184
Quote: Originally Posted by Botho View Post
Seems like theres nothing for us in 2.2.1 anyhoo, ah well.
But at least we got a Cartel Electrostaff! We should be happy! /sarcasm
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Botho's Avatar


Botho
06.24.2013 , 05:42 PM | #185
Aye, it will look great on the floor next to my corpse.

tXHereticXt's Avatar


tXHereticXt
06.24.2013 , 05:48 PM | #186
Quote: Originally Posted by Botho View Post
Sounds like it would be to complex for them to do if im honest. I think they shouldnt really lean towards self healing more than already, except for scaling the Combat Technique heal properly. The simplest most straight forward way i think is as ppl say about 4-5% DR in the tree, probably high high up the tree to make it unreachable witout full or near full tank spec.
If you're going to add 4-5% DR may as well be DC/CT so tree specs wouldn't really matter.

I also feel DC/CT should have a scaling component instead of a static amount.

Leafy_Bug's Avatar


Leafy_Bug
06.25.2013 , 11:24 AM | #187
Quote: Originally Posted by Botho View Post
Aye, it will look great on the floor next to my corpse.
I saw how it looks today, not a good looker IMO, so we can't even be dead and sexy now

JClawson's Avatar


JClawson
07.03.2013 , 12:53 AM | #188
Here, I have come up with a spec that helps to solve sin tank spikiness at the cost of taking greater damage over time.

32/11/3
The spec revolves around taking darkswell in the middle tree to give us one more cooldown to be used when needed, because lets face it; we take such huge spikes that all the standard cooldowns aren't enough. Note the spec does have threat issues in the opening as well as threat issues in trash pulls, but NiM is about the bosses.

Spec here: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#20...M0MZfrz0zZbz.3

Log of NiM TFB 1st boss: http://www.torparse.com/a/318208/8/0/Damage+Taken

Video of 1st fight here: http://www.twitch.tv/ftom14cat/c/2515552

This is not meant to be a critique of my play, only meant to be a suggestion for a tool to use to mitigate how spiky sins are.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
07.03.2013 , 01:38 AM | #189
Quote: Originally Posted by JClawson View Post
Here, I have come up with a spec that helps to solve sin tank spikiness at the cost of taking greater damage over time.

32/11/3
The spec revolves around taking darkswell in the middle tree to give us one more cooldown to be used when needed, because lets face it; we take such huge spikes that all the standard cooldowns aren't enough. Note the spec does have threat issues in the opening as well as threat issues in trash pulls, but NiM is about the bosses.

Spec here: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#20...M0MZfrz0zZbz.3

Log of NiM TFB 1st boss: http://www.torparse.com/a/318208/8/0/Damage+Taken

Video of 1st fight here: http://www.twitch.tv/ftom14cat/c/2515552

This is not meant to be a critique of my play, only meant to be a suggestion for a tool to use to mitigate how spiky sins are.
This spec has been discussed extensively in the past. The 25% damage redux is good, and it's a shorter CD than Overcharge Saber, but it's far from a solution to the problem. First off, you're increasing your baseline damage taken by 5.26% by not having the Wither debuff rolling (note: this counts for spikes as well as average damage). Second, you're dramatically increasing the amount of time it takes you to build your self-heal, which reduces your mean survivability by an enormous factor. I don't have the numbers handy, but I had previously computed this to be roughly equivalent to 6-7% of your total survivability. Finally, you're missing out on the 2% healing received buff. Thus, you are increasing the healing you require by over 13%.

Right on its face, this indicates that you would be better off going with a different option. Using a more conventional >36 point spec and then stacking all B mods with 2 or 3 Endurance augments would increase your healing required by less than half of this percentage, while bringing the probability of death on a severely spiky fight in line with that of a guardian. In other words, you can make the "more healing vs spikiness" tradeoff in a different way at far more favorable terms.

The nail in the coffin is that this spec only grants a defensive CD, it doesn't actually grant any static damage reduction. Thus it requires you to anticipate the spike, which due to the nature of shadows is almost random by its nature (since you will only get spiked if your mitigation fails). You can definitely predict some things through knowledge of the fight (e.g. Kel'sara's Discharge), but you're not going to get everything. You have, at best, given yourself another tool to deal with a small subset of cases, somewhat unreliably.

And for that you're trading a huge amount of threat and DPS, as well as 13% more healing.

Verdict: No.
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JClawson's Avatar


JClawson
07.03.2013 , 04:49 AM | #190
Quote:
Finally, you're missing out on the 2% healing received buff
It concerns me that you didn't even look at the spec before replying, but I guess that is your prerogative. Had you looked at it you would see that I do in fact keep the 2% healing received.

Obviously the point of the spec is not to use this new cooldown with some type of unattainable clairvoyance. However, the problem I am running into is getting hit with a series of unlucky/unmitigated attacks during which time I (a) have no cooldowns available, and (b) cannot receive heals in time before I die. This spec adds 1 more cooldown to use in those situations, it basically buys 6 seconds to get some big heals cooking on me.

Like I said in the original post, the reason sin/shadow tanks are failing is because of the burst. If I increase the heals I need in the aggregate by 5-10% at the cost of not dying during a boss pull then I count that as winning. Let's face it, healing in this game is more than capable of taking up the long term incoming damage this spec creates; and the spec prevents the short term damage from causing a wipe.

Baring a real fix to the sin/shadow tanking tree/kit I will be playing this spec to clear NiM content as it is the only way I feel safe handling the massive burst damage that we are seeing. By no means does anyone else have to bow down and worship this option, just consider it before uninstalling your game. It does have the added benefit of making the sin/shadow require even more skill to play. :P