I'm starting to get really worried by the CM

This is the point. Unfortunately like the poster before this, people here are denial and will do anything to avoid admitting their beloved swtor has faults. Sad really because with people like that the game will never improve.

Not really the definition of irony isn't up for debate or at least it wasn't last time I checked? Unless something has changed where you can now dispute what a word actually means I was perfectly vindicated in what I said.

i think there is a gray area, and generally agree with you kilora, but i also think there is a valid sentiment that some aspects could be seen as p2win if you wanted to see them that way.

cartel market crystals are BiS right? not only that, but you can use BiS cystals at level 10 if you buy them through the market, which you cannon if you craft them.

part of your argument suggests you can earn in-game credits by running dailies to buy those instead of spending rl money, which you think implies this is not p2win. but if you can bypass playing the game by spending rl money, isn't that what p2win means? instead of playing the game to gear grind or get stuff or whatever, you're just paying for it? i guess it depends on what "win" means, and i think that's where the gray area is.

I think Kilora brings up some fair points..but I also think p2p/p2save time is just semantics honestly. If a couple of friends literally only have an hour a day to play swtor together, one drops the cash on the cartel market allowing him/her the funds to significantly upgrade their gear and the other doesn't...well...that's most certainly an in game advantage that they bought via the cartel market that their friend could play 3 or 4 months without. All just because of money spent on the market. I absolutely agree that eventually the friend could catch up without spending a dime...but does that negate the distinct advantage in game that entire time?

That's like saying we're in a cross country race coast to coast. We both start with some old 18 wheelers...after the first day the race is close...but then you decide.."you know..i'm going to spend some money on this market..take what i got and resale it and get me a ferarri with the money!" Just because I will EVENTUALLY arrive on the other coast Looooong after you doesn't change the fact that entire time you had a distinct advantage simply because you shopped at that market and that allowed you to significantly upgrade your ride where as i couldn't...but hey..you only had the advantage you bought for a long time...I'll get to the same place...eventually...

What an utter bollocks argument. Your example of a cross country race where you buy a faster car is completely fallacious. The race example is different because the goal is to achieve that end in the fastest time. If SWTOR had a timer restriction, and by paying you could more easily "win" then fine, but it doesnt.

There may even be something of an argument that paying for stuff in SWTOR makes the experience worse, as you don't have to work your way up gradually. The fact is however the amount of money you have only has a very minimal effect anyway, as many of the items you can buy have a level limit. The only item I can think of that doesnt is the crystals?? Armor, mods, enhancements, etc all have limits so you can only upgrade your kits so far.

Can I progress faster by paying? Yes kind of, I can buy the legacy unlocks for XP, but again this is purely a time and convenience thing, meaning I can get to level 50 before my friend (maybe 25% quicker).

The time argument isn't acceptible to me.

Why? Don't some people have a significant advantage over others because they can play 60+ hours every week?

In reality, there is NO advantage other than time. Which you cannot really argue is a legitimate advantage, because I have an advantage over my guildmates who have children, work overtime, go on vacation without internet, etc. etc.

No, you're right that the definition isn't up for debate.

But you don't understand the definition. It is ok -- most people don't actually understand irony. Most often intelligent people have the most trouble with it.

Also -- you can't ever be vindicated for being an ***.

I'm not big on arguing down other people's opinions honestly. Never said my opinion has any more validity than yours. You don't like the race analogy that's fine You seem awfully fixated on the "time saving" aspect and considerably less so on the "advantage" aspect which is fine too. If we were to do a FP run together and you upgraded your gear in the manner i have mentioned before strictly with credits you got from selling your cartel market items I would LOVE for you to explain how you didn't buy an advantage over me for that FP.

not just legacy unlocks, but you can use credits to buy gear to make your character stronger by buying better armor, mods, etc. if you're not spending money through the cartel market, you might have to run extra missions to get credits or planetary comms to get the gear for your character to be competitive.

instead of actually playing the game to improve your character, you can bypass part of the leveling process by spending real-life money. as the poster you were responding to said, you're not prevented from 'winning' by not spending extra money, you're just gimped a little because you're going to have to spend more time playing the content to get the gear and credits, and perhaps run more planet missions if you don't have the exp boosts. you might not have to pay extra to win, but paying extra will make it faster and easier and allow you to bypass some of the more tedious parts. it could still be considered p2win if it makes winning faster, easier, and more accessible.

Credits, like WoW's Gold, are actually a pretty worthless commodity. All the best stuff is bought with commendations that you get from raiding or PvP. The only real worth credits have is on the GTN, and even then crafted gear doesn't get as high as raid rewards.

Which goes against what BW said in the very beginning.

They said if they maintained a certain number of subs, they'd be fine. Which they did.

What happened was big guys didn't think that was enough and wanted bigger bonuses