ETA on Advanced Class change?

I wanted to talk about something. I think Bioware actually caused this problem. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION.

Ok. I am guessing, just a guess mind you, that the SWG team had some effect on how this worked. Here is why I think that is the case.

This can be looked at as a hybrid of both the WoW (or any game that uses a similar system) and the SWG leveling system.

In SWG you would choose to level up a particular skill (there were no character levels) by using certain weapons (or no weapon) and that skill would slowly build until it unlocked the next stage.

Lets take Marksman for example. You could choose just one set of skills, and then choose another base, like artisan or entertainer, or you could continue to fill all the other skills until you reached Master Marksman....at which point you have a choice of certain specific roles or classes. In order to unlock Commando as a choice you had to have one branch of unarmed (Brawler) filled and all four Marksman branches filled.

At that point you could choose Commando and level it.

In WoW you are forced to choose a spec. There is no advanced class. You level a class, then choose a spec. You can dual spec, you can respec, but you are forced to choose one spec. You have a class, you have a spec. Period.

In this game it is a prerequisite to choose and level Trooper to 10 in order to unlock either Commando or Vanguard. You can not, under any circumstances, choose or play as a Commando or Vanguard unless you choose and level Trooper first.

So you are in essence, arguably changing your class from a Trooper to a Commando or Vanguard.

Now, in SWG you would become your new class...it is how you would be listed, how folks would see you...it was your class. You were not listed as a Marksman or Brawler (though you could choose that title if you wished). You were a Commando.

In this game your still a Trooper. And your a Commando. Your both. And neither. It is confusing. People still see you as a Trooper....your still listed on your login screen as a Trooper....you still use Trooper skills, you still get called a Trooper in your storyline, you still use Trooper gear...but your not a Trooper. Confusing. Not as meaningful as it should be IMO.

Not to mention the fact that it means you are essentially two classes and a spec. Silly IMO.

Here is where the mistake, IMO, becomes apparent. If you were listed as a Commando, called a Commando, if your gear said Commando...then you would feel like the choice meant something. Right now it seems it's just a gate to get some neat specials and play a role...

It's not as meaningful as it should be.

IMO if they want the choice to have REAL meaning they should force the choice at 10 and you should become that class...you should not longer be referred to in any way as your prior class. You TRANSFORM into the new class.

No more Trooper abilities. No more reference to Trooper. You cannot wear Trooper gear any longer. You are NOT a trooper any more.

The way it is now it is no surprise that some players find the choice less meaningful. It is due to the way it was designed.

Trooper/Commando/Gunnery. Silly.

Hence our problem.

If they were "fundamentally different class designs" I would agree. But they aren't. The range at which one attacks isn't a "fundamental difference". The gear one uses maybe...except that the gear between AC's is pretty much the same...dependent of course whether you are dps, tanking or healing.

Roles aren't a fundamental difference, otherwise there would be AC's for DPS, Healing and Tanking.

Of course, the word "fundamental" can be confusing to some. "Fundamentally different class designs" could be reworded to mean "basically different class designs". In other words they are only different in very minor aspects...which the AC system is...to my eyes anyway.

Combat Medic within Commando is a "fundamentally different class design" from Gunnery, and yet they are in the same AC. So what, outside of a small range difference (that only applies for some abilities) is so different between Commando and Vanguard that isn't also as different between spec's within the same AC?

It's my assertion that AC's are nothing more than artificial and arbitrary divisions between sets of specs and not individual classes of their own and nothing I've seen so far has changed that view. I simply don't see enough difference between AC's to justify classifying them as individual classes.

You are already listed as a commando. The login screen does say "Trooper chapter 1" for example, yet when you look at your character, or guild roster, do a /who or even just mouse over another character, you will see the class "commando" not "trooper-commando" or even trooper (unless that character has not yet chosen an AC)

My personal explanation for this is that when you choose your base class, you are choosing your STORY LINE and not your actual class, which you can choose at level 10. When you log in and it says "trooper-chapter 1", the login screen is telling which story line that character is playing and where in the story line they are. When you check your character in game, or look at your guild roster, it lists the actual class for your character.

One other thing, notice the abbreviation for advanced class is AC, the same as it would be if they used the term ACTUAL CLASS? of course, that might be just coincidence.

Thank you.

Would you like me to add your name next to the ones you wish to promote? I wanted to do that for folks so that we can clearly see who supports what and every participant in this thread is heard.

Also...do you think I left any options out? I tried to find all the ones people had mentioned.

That would be fine with me, as long as I'm listed as definitely in favor of option seven, but listed something along the lines of "willing to compromise" for the other options. I would prefer not to be confused as being in favor of allowing AC changes, even with restrictions.

Sure, but like I said, you still use Trooper gear, use Trooper specials, get called a trooper in your storyline, etc. If I am a Commando, why not get treated like one?

My only point was that when you trivialize a class choice by design you cause a problem. Telling people it's permanent isnt enough if you want to avoid people looking at as a spec instead of an actual class.

It has to feel like a class. The way the game is designed it just doesn't push that feeling as much as it should IMO, hence the reason why some folks find it trivial.

Again, just trying to look at it objectively....you don't have folks asking for the right to change from a Jedi to a Trooper with a class change. I think there is a reason for that. The choice has meaning.

This choice not so much. And that could be rectified.

Sure, but like I said, you still use Trooper gear, use Trooper specials, get called a trooper in your storyline, etc. If I am a Commando, why not get treated like one?

My only point was that when you trivialize a class choice by design you cause a problem. Telling people it's permanent isnt enough if you want to avoid people looking at as a spec instead of an actual class.

It has to feel like a class. The way the game is designed it just doesn't push that feeling as much as it should IMO, hence the reason why some folks find it trivial.

Again, just trying to look at it objectively....you don't have folks asking for the right to change from a Jedi to a Trooper with a class change. I think there is a reason for that. The choice has meaning.

This choice not so much. And that could be rectified.

So here is what I think they could do to put this to bed, and I would be happy if they did.

1) Come out and publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that an AC IS A CLASS. Period. Leave no room for doubt.

2) Remove all base class abilities when you choose your AC, the ability to wear base class armor, etc. Provide AC abilities and armor from that point forward. The only exception would be adaptive gear.

To be clear, that means your base class goes poof...not more training in the base class, all base class abilities are gone. Now the only training you receive is in the advanced class you chose.

3) Make sure all listings, all references, everything (except perhaps class story, nothing can be done about that now) is changed to refer to you by your NEW CLASS....the AC you chose.

4) Work on and release, some time in the future, an short AC quest line that brings real meaning to the role you chose. Perhaps a bit of VO work where they directly call you by your new class name.

IMO that would do the trick.

the way guild wars 2 does it is irrelevant. guild wars 2 is not TOR. they have a different dynamic. address TOR and specifically TOR when making your argument.